Arm Variations Other Than Tano and Rippon

[charlotte14]

I don't know why it's called Rippon. He was not the first skater to do that arm variation. Midori used to do them all the time in the 80s.

Because it's easy to address? Most people who have watched FS for long know Adam was not the first to do it.

 

[gkelly]

gkelly posted an example of this lutz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ3_aQff6Cg&t=1m20s with arms variation

It's a toe loop (clockwise) . . . I don't think I've ever seen something like that on a triple lutz, but there's probably someone out there these days who could manage it.

Do we have skaters with Tano + Rippon and very very low GOE in jumps?

Very very low = -2 and -3? That would most likely mean they either didn't land the jump or it was downgraded.

Low = -1 and 0, landed but not well? Or issues with the preceding steps on an SP solo jump?

Not very high = 0s and 1s?

Not many in senior internationals so far, because it's mostly being used by Russian ladies who are strong jumpers. We don't see the ones who don't even make it to Russian Nationals.

And the average+ jumpers who do try it usually try it only on their best jumps.

As it becomes more popular and more average and below-average jumpers start incorporating the variations in hopes of boosting a 0 to a 1 for a successful jump, we'll see more examples.

Some junior examples with mostly +1s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiIJYD9h8-8&t=1m57s (usually jumps better and scores better)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDEzWnRwszw&t=2m15s (failed combo, -3, followed by landed solo jump mostly +1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SMas8swF4s&t=35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SMas8swF4s&t=1m10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITuMhLchlDI&t=58s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucVfRdh_xmk&t=2m30s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNL1O3oG1YE&t=2m39s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKAnhRKFGx0&t=2m50s (-1 to +1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ZZa1MRqX8&t=1m15s (0s and 1s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWviwJJ6Zd4&t=2m41s (-1 and 0)

Seniors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXEwnq1GM5U&t=1m44s (mostly 0s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1JQchHzjCs&t=53s (good tano jump with mostly +1s and several +2s, followed by failed tano with -2s and -3s, one -1)

 

[Tahuu]

Deleted. Similar cross-arm 2A.

 

[charlotte14]

It's a toe loop (clockwise) . . . I don't think I've ever seen something like that on a triple lutz, but there's probably someone out there these days who could manage it.



Very very low = -2 and -3? That would most likely mean they either didn't land the jump or it was downgraded.

Low = -1 and 0, landed but not well? Or issues with the preceding steps on an SP solo jump?

Not very high = 0s and 1s?

Not many in senior internationals so far, because it's mostly being used by Russian ladies who are strong jumpers. We don't see the ones who don't even make it to Russian Nationals.

And the average+ jumpers who do try it usually try it only on their best jumps.

As it becomes more popular and more average and below-average jumpers start incorporating the variations in hopes of boosting a 0 to a 1 for a successful jump, we'll see more examples.

Some junior examples with mostly +1s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiIJYD9h8-8&t=1m57s (usually jumps better and scores better)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDEzWnRwszw&t=1m15s (failed combo, -3, followed by landed solo jump mostly +1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SMas8swF4s&t=35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SMas8swF4s&t=1m10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITuMhLchlDI&t=1m58s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucVfRdh_xmk&t=2m30s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNL1O3oG1YE&t=2m39s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKAnhRKFGx0&t=2m50s (-1 to +1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ZZa1MRqX8&t=1m15s (0s and 1s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWviwJJ6Zd4&t=2m41s (-1 and 0)

Seniors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXEwnq1GM5U&t=1m44s (mostly 0s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1JQchHzjCs&t=53s (good tano jump with mostly +1s and several +2s, followed by failed tano with -2s and -3s, one -1)

Yeah thank you very much for all these examples. I remember when tano and rippon were first used across the programs, Medvedeva and Shakanovich got a lot of GOE and it became the norm for judges to give much GOE for those. Now it's so popular I think they come back to give huge GOE for established names the same.

 

[charlotte14]

I'm intrigued by the discussion on whether arm variations actually increase GOE. It seems like +2's and +3's are being given out more often than they used to.

Yes, I have the feeling skaters have maxed out the bullets about TR and air position but their quality in the landings don't improve yet GOE keep getting higher.

a well-performed jump on its own receives just about the same GOE as a well-performed jump with a Tano/Rippon variation. It's not as if positive GOE is automatically received if Tano/Rippon is used and other aspects of the jump aren't good. The question sort of becomes: Does adding a Tano/Rippon push what would be a +1 jump on a good day up to a +2, or a +2 jump to a +3? ....which is difficult if not impossible to determine.

Personally I would say, for older skaters to do Tanos and Rippons, it's harder for them to get good quality as it takes more time for them to get used to it. While with junior skaters, it's easier for them to straighthen out their body and align their axis.

I have nothing against Tano/Rippon on every jump but I personally would prefer to see other features, like difficult entry or doing something interesting with the landing edge, to add difficulty to/show superior control of the jump (therefore garnering higher GOE) rather than doing the same variation over and over (it's reminding me of when everyone was putting a Biellmann position in every spin, and the rules have thankfully changed to disallow this). A mixture of different arm variations besides Tano/Rippon like the ones in this thread within one program would be fun to see.

I would say Eteri's students often fullfill both Tanos/Rippon + difficult transitions in and out of the elements. Take Takaranova for example, or Alyona. There's nothing the senior ladies can do with TR that they could not. They are even better.

 

[linkintank]

I don't know why it's called Rippon. He was not the first skater to do that arm variation. Midori used to do them all the time in the 80s.

It happens that way, it is the person who makes it popular that gets the name. Think the Biellman spin, it was first done by russian pair skaters in the 60s and not by Biellman.

 

[yume]

Do we have skaters with Tano + Rippon and very very low GOE in jumps?

Rika Kihira.

 

[charlotte14]

Rika Kihira.

Her international outings this season were not consistent. She did not land all her jumps back to back in JGP.

 

[yume]

Her international outings this season were not consistent. She did not land all her jumps back to back in JGP.

Is land her jumps back to back a GOE criteria?

 

[charlotte14]

Is land her jumps back to back a GOE criteria?

Consistency is the key for ladies these days. If you're not consistent...

Remember when Yuna's landing 5 triples was considred consistent...

 

[dorispulaski]

It also helps them extend and sort of straighten out their spine which helps create a tighter center of gravity. Serafima has said it helps create lift and aids with the step up part of her jumps. Maria Sotskova has actually improved and reduced her tendency to UR this season. People can complain all they like about their personal preference but the results are speaking much louder than any of those complainers and I say if it's helping skaters achieve greater jump results then it is a perfectly acceptable technique.

Absolutely. But if it is easier, it should not get more credit (goe) for being harder, I think.

For, yes, as the Russian ladies do a rippon, the arms are closer to the rotational axis of the jump than if they were hugged tight to the body, so the net rotational moment of inertia is smaller.

It is just a tecnique at this point, not a feature.

 

[FSGMT]

Richard Dornbush, on the second jump in this combo from his 2014-15 LP, holds his arms down and behind his back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01dPtTWGAVE&t=4m04s

I loved that program.

I was going to mention this since I saw it at the Lombardia Trophy and that was truly great!

 

[yume]

I remember Vincent Zhou did a kind of crossover between Tano and rippon on a quad. But i don't remember the competition.

 

[yume]

Consistency is the key for ladies these days.

And that's a shame.

 

[charlotte14]

And that's a shame.

but I think Rika's chance in senior will be higher if she can land 3A in SP consistently though.

 

[Makkachin]

Yes, I have the feeling skaters have maxed out the bullets about TR and air position but their quality in the landings don't improve yet GOE keep getting higher.


Personally I would say, for older skaters to do Tanos and Rippons, it's harder for them to get good quality as it takes more time for them to get used to it. While with junior skaters, it's easier for them to straighthen out their body and align their axis.


I would say Eteri's students often fullfill both Tanos/Rippon + difficult transitions in and out of the elements. Take Takaranova for example, or Alyona. There's nothing the senior ladies can do with TR that they could not. They are even better.

I haven't spent much time watching the current junior ladies, but it sounds like I should be. Incorporating a variety of features shows the most skill in my book

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I haven't spent much time watching the current junior ladies, but it sounds like I should be. Incorporating a variety of features shows the most skill in my book

JGPF has been the best ladies event of the year in my opinion! 100 elements and only one fall and it was on a fully rotated quad (tech panel was wrong )and a pop on a 3a!! These girls are so good

Here is the SP!!
https://youtu.be/C_wlqYQlY44

Lots of arm variations and transitions!!

 

[twirlingblades]

Absolutely. But if it is easier, it should not get more credit (goe) for being harder, I think.

For, yes, as the Russian ladies do a rippon, the arms are closer to the rotational axis of the jump than if they were hugged tight to the body, so the net rotational moment of inertia is smaller.

It is just a tecnique at this point, not a feature.

I think easier is relative to the skater. I hated doing rippons and tanos because I didn't like raising my center of gravity. Some skaters (especially young ones) like doing that. I remember a TSL interview with Gracie, where she said she started doing rippons and Frank said that since she already had a tendency to rotate with her arms higher up, she should just straighten them above her head. Her rippons were gorgeous.

I personally tend to like rippons more than tanos. I think its a symmetry thing. Although if the tano arm is stretched out above the head, they look nice!

 

[Shayuki]

I personally tend to like rippons more than tanos. I think its a symmetry thing. Although if the tano arm is stretched out above the head, they look nice!

This made me curious for some unbiased opinions - Do you think that a tano performed like this looks bad? I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't even notice it was a tano at first. It really doesn't pop out like they tend to. Does this look good or not?

 

[atsumiri]

if it was really easy things to do... everyone would be doing it and not a few skaters who is ready to take a risk.
It's the same with steps or difficult entry to the jumps...
Every skater is capable to do steps but not everyone ready to do it before the jumps.... Again it is a risk.

kids...
it's easier to start and learn difficult things from the beginning and not when they're already adults. So it's the reason why a lot of kids can jump rippons/tanos now.
It's a progress. In a few years, there will be even more kids who would be able to do even more difficult things.