Article on the Marshall's Challenge

[hockeyfan228]

The Mets usually come on strong in the beginning of the season and end with a whimper.
Joe

Except, of course, for 1969

 

[R.D.]

MM, Joe- Thx for the suggestions, BUT...

I just can't do it. The Men's competition,or Pairs comp, or Dance comp just does nothing for me. Believe me, as dry as the ladies were, I would still rather watch them any day over any other discipline. This is a very temporary interest for me as I am really not a skating fan, actually. I'm more like one of those sports fans who is into (pro) basketball and football,etc. and Olympic sports. I love the Olympics (esp. the Summer ones) and ladies' Figure Skating is one of those Olympic events I like to watch. I'm one of those who watch "every four years". A temporary interest somehow got me involved here and I learned a lot more about it, enjoyed some comps, even a couple performances. It was great to be here with you all and talk about skating; I learned a lot from you guys and enjoyed the discussions. Hope maybe to come by periodically after the olys.

The ice shows basically put me to sleep. Bleh!

(and some of you thought I was a [insert name here] fan! Ha!)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Thanks Red Dog for the background on your sports interests. It's more understandable now.

btw, I agree with you on the ice shows.

Joe

 

[Rgirl]

This is what I meant. By "skating all out," IMHO this means putting your heart and soul into it. This has been Michelle's trademark throughout her career.

By "skating for the CoP," to me that means skating with one eye of the rule book and the other on your calculator.

Many of the ladies' performances at Worlds seemed to me to be of the second kind. Even Michelle's. Although her program was not successful, I do think that she allowed herself to worry about how many points she was accruing, and I think that this played with her mind and prevented her from "skating all out."

From everything I have read about the Marshall's performance, Michelle skated with greater abandon, greater freedom and greater joy than she did at Worlds.

IMHO it would be harmful to the sport if the new judging system turned out to reward and encourage mechanical connect-the-dots programs, with elements strung together to garner more points, but at the expense of the artistic integrity of the program as a whole. (I know you don't like double-talk about artistic integrity and skating from the heart, but that's my opinion nonetheless.)

Anyway, we'll have to wait and see. At the Marshall's event, did Michelle "skate all out," or did she merely stand more jumps than her competitors in an otherwise boring competition? Did the audience go away thinking they got their money's worth, or were they disappointed?

Mathman

PS. Interestingly, the new judging system seems to be having the opposite effect on men's skating. The men seem to be saying, "Yay, I don't have to do a quad any more, so now I can concentrate on developing my choreography and musical expression. (Buttle, Lysacek and Weir, for instance).

But at Marshall's, Weir tried a quad!

Ugh! I'm getting awfully tired of the entire COP system and its effect on skaters and their programs being evaluated based on what happened at '05 Worlds. The COP has been used for two seasons for the entire GPS/Final in all disciplines. I can only speak for myself, but during these pst two GPS seasons I've seen some glorious "heart and soul" skates and beautifully choreographed programs in the ladies discipline.

Really, during the first two GPS seasons using the COP I saw some of the most heartfelt and creative choreography from the ladies in years. Think Fumie Suguri's "Paint It Black"; Sasha Cohen's black and white "Swan Lake" before Robin Wagner Zambonied it; Shizuka Arawkawa's '03/04 LP (sorry--Sunday morning brain fog re the music); Jenny Kirk's "Chicago" SP; and many other outstanding programs, both short and long, skated wonderfully by the ladies during the GPS, which, BTW, is typically a time for skaters to work on their programs in preparation for their countries' Nationals and Worlds. If anything was going to mess with their heads, it would seem to me it would be going from the COP during the GPS to 6.0 for Nationals and Worlds and back to COP again for the following season's GPS.

I think once the skaters and choreographers have had a chance to work with one system, the COP, for a while, they will adapt. Right now, I think coaches, choreographers, and skaters are experimenting with which kinds of programs work best in competition and for them as individual skaters. Tarasova, for example, tried to combine lots of creative choreography; wringing every possible point out of the COP, ie, lots of footwork into every jump; really tough and unusual combinations spins; and 3/3/2 combo jumps. Shizza was astounding in her ability to do this at '04 Worlds. Whether it was the pressure of being World Champion or the physical pressure of trying to keep up the intensity of that kind of program, I don't think we'll ever really know. But someday, a young skater being raised on the COP may be able to do with it what Michelle did under the 6.0 system.

And if a number of the men did dazzling choreography with heart and soul, then it ain't the COP system, it's the way that systems is being used by coaches, choreographers, and skaters. Michelle herself said she "guessed" at the levels. She had plenty of opportunity to read the COP to see what constituted each level of spin, footwork, spirals, etc. as well as watch tapes of skaters in GPS competition and compared who got the highest levels for what elements. But she's right, fourth isn't bad at all considering she just guessed at the levels, these Worlds were her first COP competition, and she had her worst Worlds jumping-wise since 1997.

Finally, it seems to me that some people are evaluating the entire COP system based on what Michelle and Sasha did at Worlds. Now, now, you know who you are, you naughty fans, you. Seriously, of course I would hate it if skating turned into a mechanical ticking off of elements to get so many points. Throughout Michelle's career, because it has been such an astounding and historic one, many fans tend to hang on her every word as gospel. If Michelle says, in so many words, the COP did not allow her to skate the way the music told her to skate and thus she could not skate passionately but rather had to think about every element, I think a lot of people feel the problem is with the COP. I say baloney. Sarah Kawahara choreographed a pretty crummy "Scheherazade" for Michelle in '01/02 under the 6.0 system and that same system did not prevent Michelle from having a tight, generally passionless FS of that program. And even though Michelle got her passion back with "Aranjuez" and "Tosca" and also improved her skating in a number of ways during those seasons as well, there was criticism that those programs lacked choreographic "in-betweens."

I don't mean to pound on Michelle. I could just as easily pound on the other skater some people are saying prove the COP is the death knell for good skating choreography and skating with passion, Sasha Cohen--that is those who think Sasha has ever skated with passion, lol. But I chose Michelle precisely because she is considered the best, she is a historic skater, and people do hang on every opinion she states that matters. All I'm saying is that in this case, Michelle is also saying, at least in part, that she was not as prepared as she should have been to win or medal at these Worlds. Let's just not forget that part of what Michelle said either.

As for the COP not allowing her to do what the music tells her to do, well, the 6.0 system had rules too. The SP is nothing but rules and some of Michelle's SPs have been more memorable than her LPs. As someone else said, Michelle was raised on the 6.0 system and she has had unprecedented success with it, ie, more 6.0s awarded to her than any other skater or team ever. It only makes sense that the transition from 6.0 is going to be more difficult for someone such as Michelle than it will be for someone who is just starting their climb into the senior elite ranks.

The men have shown clearly that achieving creative choreography and soulful skating is no more or less difficult under the COP than it was under 6.0. I think the idea that one cannot skate to what the music is telling you has been proved absolutely wrong by skaters such as Jeff Buttle and Johnny Weir. And if US broadcasting had shown more female skaters, I'm sure there are examples in their ranks as well.

I think Michelle is simply expressing some all too understandable and forgivable anxiety about not doing well under the COP at the Worlds right before what we assume will be if not her last Olympics, then her last chance for the OGM. Personally, my heart goes out to her. First Tara Lipinski shows up with her 3lp/3lp; then things come to a breaking point with Frank and Lori six months before the '02 Olympics. Now it's the COP. When it comes to the Olympics, it truly does seem something bizarre happens to prevent Michelle from wining the one medal that many/most should have been hers in '98. So who can blame her for perhaps feeling as if she'd like to kick the COP to Kingdom Come (no offense intended).

But I really feel that the COP may be just the thing Michelle needed to get deeply and truly motivated to train her best, get a real masterpiece in terms of choreography ("Aranjuez" and "Tosca" were terrific in their way, but masterpieces they weren't), stop "guessing" at the COP and do some serious studying, all of which, IMO, is what I think Michelle may need to fight off the young and hungry competition who have been learning from the master all these years--Michelle Kwan.

OTOH, if five years from now we see the same spins, jumps, spirals, FW sequences, and mechanical jump oriented performances in every figure skating performance and basically see FS go the way of gymnastics, then yes, we'll have evidence to say the COP is the villian. But to blame the COP because of some lack of preparation, poor skating, and general lack of conditioning and enthusiasm on the part of a previously almost untouchable skater is, IMO, like blaming a bad cake on someone who hadn't prepared herself to follow a new recipe. As has oft been said in many ways, it's much more difficult staying at the top than getting to the top. I think the COP is just the motivation Michelle needs to reheat her competitive fires and once again show the world what Lori Nichol once described as the inherent power in Michelle. which I believe is the fundamental place where her mesmerizing passion and love of figure skating comes from. Not a "power hungry" kind of thing, but rather a power of the human spirit. I think we heard a frustrated and angry at herself Michelle after Worlds, and if history has shown us anything it is that nothing turns Michelle into the unbeatable fighter we've seen for the past decade like some frustration and anger. Personally, I think the ladies figure skating events in Torino may be the shot in the arm the sport has been needing. And as I've predicted before, Michelle will win the OGM to complete her Olympic medal collection.

Rgirl

 

[R.D.]

Finally, it seems to me that some people are evaluating the entire COP system based on what Michelle and Sasha did at Worlds. Now, now, you know who you are, you naughty fans, you. Seriously, of course I would hate it if skating turned into a mechanical ticking off of elements to get so many points. Throughout Michelle's career, because it has been such an astounding and historic one, many fans tend to hang on her every word as gospel. If Michelle says, in so many words, the COP did not allow her to skate the way the music told her to skate and thus she could not skate passionately but rather had to think about every element, I think a lot of people feel the problem is with the COP.

But MK has developed and had HER best moments with the 6.0 system, so her reluctance to enter the new system is understandable (but necessary if she hopes to win the olys). Frankly, if she HAD won the olys and continued, I think she would have retired as soon as Cop came out.

I wonder about the young skaters who will develop under the Cop. Will they have their moments of glory as well? You bet.

And as I've predicted before, Michelle will win the OGM to complete her Olympic medal collection.

Ha! (I'm sure you've heard what they say about jinxing.)

To provide an example, during the Marshall's Spring Challenge when Button said MK hadn't made a mistake in her whole Bolero performance, MK doubled a jump. Talk about JINX!

 

[Rgirl]

But MK has developed and had HER best moments with the 6.0 system, so her reluctance to enter the new system is understandable (but necessary if she hopes to win the olys). Frankly, if she HAD won the olys and continued, I think she would have retired as soon as Cop came out.

I wonder about the young skaters who will develop under the Cop. Will they have their moments of glory as well? You bet.....

Hey Red Dog,
ITA that Michelle's reluctance to fully embrace the COP is not only understandable, but also absolutely, completely, and totally understandable. As I said after your quote in my previous post, it's as if Michelle just can't get a break with the Olympics. First it was Tara's 3lp/3lp; then it was the end of the Frank and Lori era six months before the 2002 Olympics. I know Michelle initiated the latter, but for whatever reasons, she felt she could not continue under the old regimen any longer. Now, less than one year before the '06 Olympics she skates her first competition under the COP. Again, this was her choice, but not only is hindsight 20/20 but we all do much better at running other people's lives than our own.

And it is entirely true that not a one of us here knows what the outcome of the '06 ladies FS Olympics will be. The COP could just as easily be the one last barrier that prevents Michelle from winning the OGM as it could be the impetus to help her win. I was going on gut instinct and Michelle's history of performing best when everybody counts her out. But there are a lot of senior skaters, such as Carolina Kostner, to name just one, who have been quietely on the upswing of their respective learning curves and could peak at just the right four minutes to win that OGM.

My main point, admittedly lost in my typically digression-filled writing, was that I was growing rather tired of so many poster evaluating the merits of the COP based solely on what Michelle and Sasha did at '05 Worlds.

I still have a gut feeling that events will come together so that Michelle will win that OGM. However, I'm old enough (WAY old enough) to remember Kurt Browning, multiple world champion and WC going into both the '92 and '94 Olympics coming away from both with NO medals sighing in the K&C, "I guess the Olympics just aren't my thing." After that, forces conspired for Kurt to participate and flourish in the brief boom of professional skating in the '90s. It's no OGM, but Kurt did many magical programs during his years with SOI and remains one of the most beloved skaters in the World today.

My point This is my metaphor for life: If life is a cat and you throw it out ugly, there's no teling how it's going to come down.

Rgirl

 

[Mathman]

My main point, admittedly lost in my typically digression-filled writing, was that I was growing rather tired of so many poster evaluating the merits of the COP based solely on what Michelle and Sasha did at '05 Worlds.

I think the reason for that impression on this thread is that this is the thrust of the article that occasioned the first post. It is all about how comfortable Michelle felt at Marshall's, etc., and what Sasha thought about it, etc., etc., etc.

Lost in the shuffle was the more interesting question raised by the author (Alexandra Stevenson) in the first two paragraphs:

"This year’s Challenge, a made-for-television event which will be shown on ABC Saturday, April 16, 4-6pm EST, was all-American, a radical policy change from previous years when the event included an array of medalists from the World Championships. There was speculation this had something to do with the strained relations between USFigureSkating and the ISU, which Ottavio Cinquanta alluded to in a press conference at the recent European championships.

"Cinquanta, the President of the ISU, blamed the lessening television interest and revenues in the Grand Prix Series on the non-participation of Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen. He lambasted the USFS for not forcing them to take part. Of course, at Worlds, he also said the Russian federation should have forced the injured Evgeny Plushenko to complete that championship. That certainly could have been achieved if Mussolini or Stalin were still around but, today, in a democracy, people decide their own actions."

MM

PS...

My point This is my metaphor for life: If life is a cat and you throw it out ugly, there's no telling how it's going to come down.

I just did a Google search for "Throw a cat out ugly." In all of the eight billion web pages in Google's data base, there is not a single instance of these five words written together. (Maybe eventually Google will get arround to reading this page, LOL. But you will be pleased to know that "Beaver Cleaver Sasha Cohen" returned 122 references.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

rGirl - Good points at what the CoP is driving skating to do. Moreso in Pairs than in Singles but enough in Singles too.

Whether one likes the CoP or not, it is the rule of the game. It is a Sport and beautiful choreography is just one part of it, not the entire scope. If you love artistic skating, see SOI.

btw, Wagner's edited Swan Lake was exquisitely skated in Dortumd QR. It takes two to tango.

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

If you love artistic skating, see SOI.

Or see both of Johnny Weir's, Jeffrey Buttle's, Stephane Lindemann's, or Stephane Lambiel's SP's and LP's from 2003-5, or Viktor Pfeifer's or Kristoffer Berntsson's 2005 SP's, or Brian Joubert's Time SP, or Arakawa's Turandot LP and Madama Butterfly SP, Cohen's Malaguena and Dark Eyes SP's, the last three SP's by Totmianina/Marinin and Petrova/Tikhonov, Savchenko/Szolchowy's Casablanca, Denkova/Staviyski's 2004 FD, Delobel/Schoenfelder's Frida, just to skim the surface.

btw, Wagner's edited Swan Lake was exquisitely skated in Dortumd QR.

Wasn't it ever?

 

[cianni]

Joesitz, I want to see both and thats not happening. I dont see Bielmans every other move and waving arms or look how fast I can spin in the same program with falls, two footed jumps , hands down ,wonky landings on jumps, traveling spins and all the other flawed skating COP has given us. I see no reason for the skaters to improve when a good spin as an example will allow a two footed jump or fall or whatever else to not make a difference. I want a balanced program with quality skating like no fallls,hands down, etc. I agree it is a sport and should be judges as such.

 

[brad640]

Or see both of Johnny Weir's, Jeffrey Buttle's, Stephane Lindemann's, or Stephane Lambiel's SP's and LP's from 2003-5, or Viktor Pfeifer's or Kristoffer Berntsson's 2005 SP's, or Brian Joubert's Time SP, or Arakawa's Turandot LP and Madama Butterfly SP, Cohen's Malaguena and Dark Eyes SP's, the last three SP's by Totmianina/Marinin and Petrova/Tikhonov, Savchenko/Szolchowy's Casablanca, Denkova/Staviyski's 2004 FD, Delobel/Schoenfelder's Frida, just to skim the surface.

All great examples! Artistry abounds in the eligible ranks, but we rarely get to see it because judges do not reward some great skating. Limited/poor television coverage does not help. I would much rather watch an eligible competition than a show or exhibition.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joesitz, I want to see both and thats not happening. I dont see Bielmans every other move and waving arms or look how fast I can spin in the same program with falls, two footed jumps , hands down ,wonky landings on jumps, traveling spins and all the other flawed skating COP has given us. I see no reason for the skaters to improve when a good spin as an example will allow a two footed jump or fall or whatever else to not make a difference. I want a balanced program with quality skating like no fallls,hands down, etc. I agree it is a sport and should be judges as such.

Cianni - That's ideal. All the elements in sync with the music and lots of flow over the ice (flow is what skating is all about; the tricks are just add ons).

For some reason, mishaps in figure skating (except for underrotated jumps) are not penalized. They are sometimes scored less but who who knows that? In all other sports, mishaps are judged accordingly. Check out gymnastics and diving.

I can not, for the life of me, understand, that a skater can do 2 separate triple toes and get credit for both because the intention was that one was to be in combo but the combo failed. To me the second triple toe should get a zilch. There was no combo.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Brad, great signature graphic! (Now if you could just work Van der Perren in, it would be perfect.)

Mathman

 

[brad640]

Thank you Mathman! Funny you should mention VDP because I almost included him as well, but there are too many favorites!