Artur Werner Worlds article (translation)

[Linny]

Men and Women

A man's man? You mean like this?
http://spb.tourarena.com/ta2graph.nsf/Graph/Theatre1_Barishnikov2/$File/Barishnikov2.jpg

A feminine female? You mean like this?
http://www.nyrrc.org/fast-women/athletes/images/mglusac.jpg

'cum-on, I say. This image of what a man "should" look like or what a woman "should" look like have long since gone down the toilet. Appreciate these individuals for what they are.

Linny

(edited to fix link)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

What I don't understand is why so many fans are 'gay' obsessed.

It's like when mentioning Sarah Hughes one automatically said, 'underrotated jumps'. To mention Johnny or Jeffrey some must automatically say 'gay' without any explanation as to why that must be mentioned and how important it is.

Is it that we must have all male skaters skate like Yagudin (is he gay?). We do not want diversity. We want clones. Seig Heil!!

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Joe, I think it's because we are obsessed by sex, period. Straight, gay or in between, we want to know what our favorite celebrites are doing with whom.

I look at it this way. It helps the economy by keeping the supermarket tabloid industry in the black.

We will know that figure skating has truly arrived when we start seeing headlines like, "Michelle Kwan gives birth to two-headed green alien baby."

Or "New Prophecy: Nostradamus says Plushenko is the anti-Christ."

MM

 

[Ptichka]

Actually, Joe, I do consider the increasing percentage of gays in figure skating a problem. Let me explain before anyone jumps at me. Unfortunately, in this country there is a stereotype that you must be gay to skate. This deters many boys from entering this field. Then it just becomes a self fulfilling prophesy - the more gays people see on the ice, the more they become certain that it's not a straight man's sport. The problem with this is obvious - it really limits the number of kids going into the sport. Just look at how many girls are skating vs. how many boys.

 

[Doggygirl]

I probably mis-interpreted this whole article....

Refreshing? Not to my taste. I find it more vulgar than what is traditionally considered vulgar. For example, how in the heck would he know if there are lesbians in ladies figure skating? Really. Besides, a gay man is still a man, a gay woman is still a woman and they each belong in their appropriate segment of competition.

Linny

I have a wide variety of friends, a number of which are gay (male), lesbian, black, white, hispanic, etc. etc. - and after enough cocktails, we would collectively claim we have outer-space friends too.

I really took these comments tongue in cheek. While I don't know for sure (but now I'm interested in finding out!) I suspect most of my gay friends would have too.

Very few of my friends - straight or gay - take issues related to figure skating very seriously, and would see this article as non-PC humor. SERIOUS issues involve the legal aspects of long term relationships, etc. - more significant life stuff.

Just my two cents. I love all of my friends, regardless of preference, and I'm sure than none of them are fired up on either side about "gay issues" in figure skating.

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually, Joe, I do consider the increasing percentage of gays in figure skating a problem. Let me explain before anyone jumps at me. Unfortunately, in this country there is a stereotype that you must be gay to skate. This deters many boys from entering this field. Then it just becomes a self fulfilling prophesy - the more gays people see on the ice, the more they become certain that it's not a straight man's sport. The problem with this is obvious - it really limits the number of kids going into the sport. Just look at how many girls are skating vs. how many boys.

I don't think the number of gays in figure skating has ever changed. It's just that in the Western World, the openess of sexual freedom is more prevalent than it was. When figure skating in the West is compared with say, Hockey, there is a decided difference in the type of male skater who takes up the sport. If you go to Chelsea Piers where there are two rinks one for figure skating one for hockey, you will notice the hockey boys making fun of the figure skaters whether gay or not. This type of bullying has been around for centuries in Europe as well.

I believe what you are objecting to is the openly gay skater; not gays themselves. I can understand that but what do you suggest? Banning gays from competition if they don't change their ways (not unlike the banning of blacks in years gone by). Should we put a cap on Plushy's costumes? I mean, men in sequins just don't go over with the hockey players.

I don't believe there are that many gays in figure skating and those that are may well be hiding it even to the point of getting married. It's all so far from heaven

Joe

 

[Shanti]

I've read Artur Werner's article in Russian ...

In Russia this article was much discussed and much critisized as shameless, tasteless and inaccurate. It is a scandalous author with quite certain tendency to exaggeration. As I have read some other opus by the same author, I think by "gays" he meant Weir and Sandhu. I guess Werner just does not care about other skaters in Top10 (including Buttle, Lysacek, Dambier etc). BTW when Artur Werner was asked on his personal forum why he was so much obsessed with this question he didn't answer, moreover, he quickly deleted the post.

Regarding skating styles, I don't find anything effeminate in Jeff Buttle, just a perfect feeling of music and sense of rhythm (although obviously it is rare for a man). I've become Jeff's fan after the World Championship ( I have't seen him before). I liked his performance in LP the best (no matter he fell down). His elegance and grace is unique.
IMHO Sandhu is bizarre and eccentric, but I don't think that it's because of his ballet background. Johnny Weir is very effeminate and sooo much pretentious.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for that informative post, Shanti, and welcome to Golden Skate. I hope you like it here!

Joe, speaking of the two rinks at Chelsea Piers, I was reading in Ellen Kestnbaum's book Culture on Ice that in London in the 1800s there were always two rinks, or two secions of the pond. One was for young men to fly around rough-housing and doing dangerous acrobatic tricks. No ladies were allowed because they might get hurt.

So the ladies had there own rink. But gentlemen were allowed there, escorting the ladies and skating with them, like on a date. The book didn't say whether the "fighters" made fun of the "lovers" or not.

For whatever reason, gay men are well represented in all artistic endeavors. There would be no reason not to expect the same in figure skating. When Rudi Galindo came out, I expected that maybe others would follow suit. But I guess the times are not as enlightened yet as we hoped.

Mathman

 

[brad640]

Thanks, Ptichka, for the translation.

Actually, Joe, I do consider the increasing percentage of gays in figure skating a problem. Let me explain before anyone jumps at me. Unfortunately, in this country there is a stereotype that you must be gay to skate. This deters many boys from entering this field. Then it just becomes a self fulfilling prophesy - the more gays people see on the ice, the more they become certain that it's not a straight man's sport. The problem with this is obvious - it really limits the number of kids going into the sport. Just look at how many girls are skating vs. how many boys.

I understand what you are saying about mens figure skating having a gay identity to much of the public. I'm sure many great male athletes would not consider participating in skating because of the negative stigma, and that has limited the pool of athletes, as you say, and has probably limited the sport in some respects. Just imagine if Michael Jordan had taken an interest in skating early on and had developed his jumping ability on the ice rather than on the basketball court. However, many male athletes are drawn to skating because they feel ostracized from traditional male team sports because of their sexual identity. This is not to say that there are not gay athletes in all sports, but most of them remain in the closet while they are participating.

Figure skating requires a great deal of personal sacrifice and commitment, and unlike many traditionally male sports, it is not school-supported, thus increasing the amount of money required to reach the elite level. Many gay athletes are willing to make the sacrifices necessary for skating because it offers them an opportunity to compete athletically in an environment where they can be themselves to some degree without the danger of violence. So, although the gay association limits the sport in some respects, it also contributes to its growth.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

In the Administration World, an Administrator cites a problem, but he must also suggest a solutiion. The report will go to the Chief Admin for decision and action.

Is Johnny a problem? Is the problem just in USA? Is the problem hurting figure skating?

Given affirmative answers, what should be suggested?

1. Give Johnny warning that his behaviour is not acceptable
2. Ban Johnny if he does not change his ways
3. Have a new rule to prohibit such behaiour for all in the future
4. Others

What would be the consequences?

1. An increase in young men's interest in figure skating?
2. No more bullying from the hockey players?
3. No more jokes from Jay Leno?
4. An increase in male interest to follow the sport?
5. Others

I doubt any of these consequences would take place but an automatic deduction for demonstrating 'feminism' on the ice might work. We would need A Chief Expert on Feminism to make the call.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

I doubt any of these consequences would take place but an automatic deduction for demonstrating 'feminism' on the ice might work. We would need A Chief Expert on Feminism to make the call.

Do you mean "effeminacy" rather than "feminism"? Or are you changing the subject to something entirely different?

Personally I like diversity and rejoice when both men and women can exhibit both stereotypically feminine and stereotypically masculine styles, and other styles that don't foreground gender or sexuality in any way.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

You are right gkelly. It should be effeminacy.

And I appreciate your answer. I would even add, a skater who demonstrates his personality on the ice, has an edge over those who force themselves to be different. The orientation has nothing to do with it.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

Personally I like diversity and rejoice when both men and women can exhibit both stereotypically feminine and stereotypically masculine styles, and other styles that don't foreground gender or sexuality in any way.

Me too. I think I took the original article in a "tongue in cheek" sort of way. Maybe it was intended to be much more serious by the author, and if so shame on him. I have many gay/lesbian friends who I swear would have found the gay references humorous in the same way we laugh at more "macho" or "stereotypical" references as equally humorous.

I too love and enjoy departures from old fashioned sterotypes. My sport of choice currently is German Shepherd Dog training / trialing. If you believe what you read, it's a sport dominated by macho men. Not true!! I was at Canadian Nationals where 3 of the 5 top dog/handler teams that became part of Canada's World Team were women with dogs. Our trainer of choice for our dog is a woman who I doubt ways 110 pounds soaking wet, and she just achieved a Schutzhund 3 (the highest level) titile (3 phases - obedience, protection, tracking) with the highest score of the comp with a big male they just imported from Germany within the last 6 months. Size and sex don't matter as much as some people think in sport or in life.

DG

 

[Ptichka]

Is Johnny a problem? Is the problem just in USA? Is the problem hurting figure skating?

Given affirmative answers, what should be suggested?

1. Give Johnny warning that his behaviour is not acceptable
2. Ban Johnny if he does not change his ways
3. Have a new rule to prohibit such behaiour for all in the future
4. Others

The solution is not in discouraging effenimante skaters; the solution is in popularizing the sport to attract more variety. The solution is in exposing male figure skaters (gay or straight) to wide population, demonstrating values (sportsmanship, hard work etc.) that people find positive and want to see in their children.

 

[Ogre Mage]

I think that Elvis Stojko and Tim Goebel in their prime (even though I do not like their skating) were two skaters who really shattered the myth of the effeminate skater. At one time, I think the USFSA felt a need to push this kind of style because of perceptions that the public was turned off by anything which suggested homosexuality.

But luckily for Johnny, he has come of age in an era of "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy," "Queer As Folk," and "Ellen." As society (grudging) becomes more accepting of homosexuality, the skating world is slowly opening its closet door, which was so bursting before it was pretty hard to keep everyone in. Johnny is pretty flaming and I think he would have had a really hard time achieving success 15 years ago. And even now there have been grumblings behind closed doors at the USFSA that he needed to change. But Johnny stuck to his guns and insisted on being himself. When he skated great, the judges still rewarded him. I also think that when you have a skater like Johnny next to a skater like Tim (both National Champs) it shows the diversity within the sport.

I also think credit has to go to Rudy Galindo, who was the first one to crack open the closet door.

 

[76olympics]

I am a little confused...

Joe-do you mean that Johnny's skating style is effeminate-or that the establishment disapproves of the fairly evident fact that he is gay (off-ice behavior)? Like most, I don't think the skaters have to please the public in every aspect of their lives-the skating quality is what matters.I like the "artistic skaters" best from a personal POV (Paul Wylie vs Elvis S). And I do enjoy watching Johnny's programs-his off-ice activities (the shopping piece fluff) don't interest me as much. He seems like he would be a bit high maintenance to deal with if you had to travel with him. .

Thanks Ptichka for the translation. It is great to be able to read controversial pieces that don't come here; it gives a different picture from the travelogues we see from the American commentators. They gave the impression that Johnny was a big favorite in Russia due to his style and efforts to try to speak the language. (the Cyrillic support signs in the audience etc.) iIs Artur Werner an exception to this?

 

[Linny]

Tim?

[snip]Tim Goebel [snip]who really shattered the myth of the effeminate skater.

Tim? He was filmed at the last Nationals CRYING (over Angela's mom). In the world in which men are men (pound chest) and womem are women (flutter eyelashes), men don't cry.

Linny

 

[Mathman]

:agree:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe-do you mean that Johnny's skating style is effeminate-or that the establishment disapproves of the fairly evident fact that he is gay (off-ice behavior)? Like most, I don't think the skaters have to please the public in every aspect of their lives-the skating quality is what matters.I like the "artistic skaters" best from a personal POV (Paul Wylie vs Elvis S). And I do enjoy watching Johnny's programs-his off-ice activities (the shopping piece fluff) don't interest me as much. He seems like he would be a bit high maintenance to deal with if you had to travel with him.

I don't think Johnny's style is effeminate at all. I have yet to see an effeminate lady skate like him. To me, he is unique, and yes, he is not like any other male skater but then neither was Elvis Stoiko. As I said before, Russian skaters seem to me to be cut from the same bolt. Not much diversity there. I like diversity.

I think what got the 'girly' thing going was an interview after one of the GPs when he said he likes to shop. We all know real men don't eat quiche, and they don't like to shop. Personal lives of skaters play a big part with the fans. Sometimes I think moreso than skating.

Joe

 

[Hikaru]

Thank you, Rain. That is what I was struggling (with little success) to say.

Please ignore all my previous posts, and replace them with :"What Rain said."

Mathman

PS. Irina looks great in pants. Fumie, too.

I second rain's post! just what was in my mind