Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin

[Ykai]

Totally agree about the need to teach kids (and many adults) about affirmative consent. Especially the boys.

And girls need to be taught how to be strong and protect themselves, and not just lie there quietly, hoping "he'll get the nonverbal message and stop".

Agree that girls need to be taught to defend themselves. But when something like this happens, especially for the first time and at a young age, your mind froze and you don't necessarily remember what to do during the first 5 to 10 minutes, no matter what you have been educated before. Confusion and fear usually take over and prevent you from thinking logically. I am not saying education is not useful, it is very useful. But the way Ashley reacted (just lying quietly and hoping) is totally normal.

 

[believed]

He was wrong to crawl into bed without asking (even if he mistakenly believed she let him know earlier that she'd like him to). She was wrong to keep silent until almost the last moment. Both needed better educating on these matters, IMHO.

No. Ashley did nothing wrong here. It is wrong and completely harmful to conflate his actions with hers.

 

[Freddie]

There’s no reason for me to believe Coughlin did anything bad. Even with Ashley’s story he stopped when she asked.

Yes, he did nothing bad except CLIMB INTO A MINOR'S BED AND GROPE HER WHILE HE THOUGHT SHE WAS ASLEEP. And then whatever else he did with all of the OTHER minors who have accused him of sexual assault. Just such a great guy, right?

 

[Freddie]

But she wasn't a minor. The age of consent in Colorado is 16. She was 17. She was not a minor.

What consent??? HE THOUGHT SHE WAS ASLEEP. He climbed into a teenager's bed and started groping her when she appeared to be sleeping. Sorry, not sure there are any states where sleeping is considered consent.

 

[markovai]

There're degrees of "assault", though.

This is not nearly the same level of wickedness as some other notorious abuse cases. It's not helping anyone to exaggerate it into something it was not.

He was wrong, he should have been taught better. Also, the systems should have been prepared better. Also, it's long overdue to teach everyone about affirmative consent.

But her account doesn't paint him as some "monster" similar to the likes of Nassar, Weinstein, Allen, Epstein, or other powerful adult pedophiles or rapists. Lets not pretend it's all the same, because it's not helpful.

Fully agree. And also, he committed a suicide, he is no more alive. Let him rest in peace. Ashley, why do you speak only now, why didn't you say anything for 11 years? Do you feel now better by revealing the name of a person who is no more here? If you wanted to defend the young 13-year old skaters, you could have done it without mentioning the name. You are famous, you have influence in USFS, you surely have other ways to help.

 

[Finley]

Beyond tragic? Coughlin came on to her, she told him to stop and he did. This kind of thing has happened more times to me than I can remember. In fact, in pretty much the exact wording. First you try to pretend you're sound asleep thinking he'll get the message. Then change your position moving away from him, and when that doesn't work you just say "Will you just stop?? I'm trying to sleep!" End of story. Yes, Coughlin is a creepster, no one is doubting her story and this hopefully help Coughlin's accusers emotionally. And I think it's good that Ashley spoke her truth after seeing young Alysa Liu winning Nationals because let's face it, Alysa is a YOUNG 13 who seems to be extremely sheltered. But to extol Ashley for being so brave just for saying a guy came on to her and stopped when she told him stop to me at least kind of makes me roll my eyes. I'm not rolling my eyes at Ashley, everyone has their truth and feelings, but I'm not really getting 'beyond tragic' like others are saying. But Ashley helped start a dialogue about drinking at parties and the potential risks of doing so. So, good for Ashley for doing that.

A guy 'comes on' to you when you are awake and conscious. When you are asleep they are not coming on to you they are taking advantage of a situation.

At the point the guy decides to put his hands on you and touch you with any part of his body without your consent he has just committed a crime. Whether it is a misdemeanor or a felony varies from state to state given the age difference in this particular situation. That is for the prosecutor to decide.

If someone you know walks up to you in a grocery store, or at a friends house, and kisses your neck and puts their hands down your pants and touches you without your consent they are not being a 'creepster'. They are being a criminal. Because it is a crime to do that. It does not make it not a crime because it happened in a bedroom. It doesn't make it not a crime because one or both of you was asleep or drunk.

If a stranger touches you like this they have committed a crime against you. If someone you know does this without your consent they have committed a crime against you.

If you choose not to tell anyone ever it is still a crime. If you tell and you are not believed it is still a crime. If you don't report it to the proper authorities it is still a crime. If you do report it and are not believed it is still a crime. If the prosecutor chooses not to go forward with the case because they don't think they can get a conviction it does not mean that what happened to you didn't happen. If a jury finds the perpetrator not guilty due to lack of evidence it does not change the facts of what happened to you.

Enough with telling victims that it's not that bad. Yes, it is that bad.

 

[nussnacker]

Umm...I don't believe I accused you of anything, Casual. I responded to nussnacker's post. Are you also nussnacker? I explained to him/her that I had not meant to give that impression.

I think he/she thought you quoted my comment by mistake and intended to quote his/hers.

 

[Freddie]

Well done, Ashley Wagner. She speaks up, she speaks out, she says publicly when something isn't right. And she takes action. She gets demonized for all those things. She's even been attacked on Goldenskate forums for courageously speaking her mind and taking action.

1. In January, upon watching Alysa Liu become US champion at age 13, and in the wake of John Coughlin's suicide, Ashley knew she had to do something.

2. In February, Ashley told her story to officials at U.S. Figure Skating, and

.... after several meetings, she now is working on changes in athlete safety and well-being within the national governing body and speaking in person with groups of young skaters, parents and coaches.

“What happened to Ashley should not happen to anyone, period," USFS spokeswoman Barbara Reichert told USA TODAY Sports in a statement. "Ashley is incredibly strong; not just to have the courage to come forward with her story, but to share her experience publicly to help others. Ashley recently spoke at U.S. Figure Skating athlete safety seminars and her experience and message of empowerment had a profound impact on skaters and their parents."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...ting-sexual-assault-john-coughlin/1876517001/​

3. Ashley was "paralyzed by fear" because her assailant was so much bigger than she, his weight overpowered her. She spoke up, and he stopped and left. But still, for years, she was assailed by feelings of guilt that should not have rested on her.

4. Ashley acknowledged that both her social circle and John's were incredibly small, and that athletes on the national team take the same flights, stay in the same hotels, and eat meals together. It doesn't excuse anything, but her words shed light on how this happens.

5.

"Good people can hurt you too. Just because someone is nice, just because they seem to do all the right things, just because they make people laugh, doesn't mean that they are incapable of hurt or abuse. No one is all good or all bad, but the good parts can’t justify the hurt that is caused."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...ting-sexual-assault-john-coughlin/1876419001/​

^^THIS^^ ^^THIS^^

 

[moonvine]

I don't what to say about this article. I love/loved both skaters and I find this heartbreaking. A sad and awful chapter in skating.

Me too.

 

[LiamForeman]

Just such a great guy, right?

I don't think ANYONE here is saying he's such a great guy. He's a creep. I never understood those guys in college or older who were into high schoolers. I felt that they were losers, and were missing some brain matter to put it nicely. When this whole story broke, I believed his accusers. I'm glad Ashley was able to tell her story and hopefully girls/young women will be more prepared in case they are in a similar position. Like I said above, this exact scenario has happened to me several times. I learned how to immediately push the hand away or tell him to bug off right from the get go. So if girls can at least learn from others' experiences that is a good thing.

 

[Edwin]

What is the ratio of male posters defending Coughlin vs female posters defending Wagner?

And what does that say about our culture and the distinction between what is being considered appropriate by each gender and what is not?

 

[moonvine]

this is already an arguement in the comments on the youtube video. it's really disgusting.

I know from personal experience that when the female party is drunk (especially underage) she gets a good portion of the blame - after all - she was breaking the law. More so in the 80s of course but I doubt it has changed anywhere near enough.

 

[LiamForeman]

What consent??? HE THOUGHT SHE WAS ASLEEP. He climbed into a teenager's bed and started groping her when she appeared to be sleeping. Sorry, not sure there are any states where sleeping is considered consent.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. Of course she couldn't consent if she was sleeping. Why state such a thing? The reason I brought up age of consent was just to remind people that saying she was a 'minor' gives the impression of statutory rape. Which this never was the case.

 

[Edwin]

I know from personal experience that when the female party is drunk (especially underage) she gets a good portion of the blame - after all - she was breaking the law. More so in the 80s of course but I doubt it has changed anywhere near enough.

Probably. Being drunk as a female minor is a bigger offence than groping a female minor when you the adult male or both are drunk.

 

[SorrySkater]

Coughlin’s are extremely far from the definition of “came on to her” in my mind. That term implies consensual action on both sides. I would think of it as being synonymous with flirting. You cannot “come on to” someone who is asleep or unconscious, nor does groping a sleeping/unconscious person fit into any sane person’s definition of flirting. I’m somewhat horrified that anyone would view Coughlin’s actions as the equivalent of flirting.

 

[Casual]

Agree that girls need to be taught to defend themselves. But when something like this happens, especially for the first time and at a young age, your mind froze and you don't necessarily remember what to do during the first 5 to 10 minutes, no matter what you have been educated before. Confusion and fear usually take over and prevent you from thinking logically. I am not saying education is not useful, it is very useful. But the way Ashley reacted (just lying quietly and hoping) is totally normal.

I agree that the way Ashley reacted is normal, and typical. Education would help.

So many girls were in her position. The first time it happens is a shock, but it's really important to teach kids to be proactive and verbalize their discomfort or terror, and be ready to defend themselves.

Forewarned is forearmed.

 

[Finley]

Why do you assume he touched her genitals? I didn't get that from her story. Yes, most 'normal' guys wouldn't do what he did, but who knows what happened throughout the night, maybe he misjudged a flirtation that wasn't there? We don't know. And she might not know either if she had too much to drink. But to what basically amounts to a drunk guy and drunk girl finding themselves in bed together and she kicks him out when he starts groping her, well, that happens all the time. Not saying it is right, but not much even happened.

Lots of things happen all the time. They happen because the people making them happen aren't afraid of facing the consequences of their actions. They do what they do because they can and we let them. It is way past time for these things to stop. They aren't going to stop by themselves. Things have to change - Stop minimalizing these things when they happen. Stop downplaying their effects on the victims. Stop dismissing it as normal behavior.

And we have to stop blaming the victim for what they failed to do to prevent themselves from becoming victims. Of all the things that need to stop that is one of the most important.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I had believed the anonymous victims about Coughlin, but I had no idea that a beloved, elite skater would come forward. She’s so brave. This must be so difficult for her.

I'm glad you said this. So often, people don't believe accusers when they aren't well known, or widely beloved, or even anonymous.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Yes, he did nothing bad except CLIMB INTO A MINOR'S BED AND GROPE HER WHILE HE THOUGHT SHE WAS ASLEEP. And then whatever else he did with all of the OTHER minors who have accused him of sexual assault. Just such a great guy, right?

Whether she was a minor or not doesn't really matter. She could have been 90 and this would still be sexual assault.

 

[crazydreamer]

I’m just remembering that Ashley was also the one the convinced Gracie to seek help. I am so impressed with this girl, she really tries to do the right thing.