Ashley Wagner in ESPN Magazine Body Issue

[bevybean]

There are also padded/reinforced headbands that can prevent or lessen some impacts. E.g., http://icehalo.com/

Also this brand: http://crasche.com/ which we got for my daughter. A personal trainer friend of mine said the Crasche looked better than the ice halo, but either one would be better than nothing.

I'm wondering if they could develop a specific helmet for skating --something more like what bicyclist wear not the full head motorcycle helmet you see. That would keep the sight lines open and also doesn't cover the ears. (I'm sometimes more aware of people around me because I can hear them.)

I understand not wearing a helmet in competition, but you would think that it would be encouraged for practice. And what about for non-elite skaters. My other sport is curling and our club has had several discussions lately about concussions. At the club level you have a lot of people curling who are not athletes and don't have some of the advantages that come with that (like strong neck muscles and basic agility). Not every skater on the ice is an athelete to the level of an elite skater --like the younger girls. We have a policy now at the curling club that if anyone hits their head, even if it is minor, we call the ambulance and have them checked out. I'm just as disturbed that Ashley said she fell and was not even looked at. Calling the ambulance every time might be a bit extreme, but every skater should at least stop skating and be checked out by someone with first aid knowledge. My daughter doesn't always wear the Crasche that we got her, but she knows to come off the ice and tell me if she hit her head. I'll give her the basic check over and if she seems fine we won't go to the doctor, but I'll keep an eye on her for the rest of the day to make sure no symptoms develop. And I almost always pull her off the ice for the rest of the day as a precaution. Because a second hit on the head doesn't just double the injury, it increases it exponentially.

 

[brightphoton]

Also this brand: http://crasche.com/ which we got for my daughter. A personal trainer friend of mine said the Crasche looked better than the ice halo, but either one would be better than nothing.

I'm wondering if they could develop a specific helmet for skating --something more like what bicyclist wear not the full head motorcycle helmet you see. That would keep the sight lines open and also doesn't cover the ears. (I'm sometimes more aware of people around me because I can hear them.)

I understand not wearing a helmet in competition, but you would think that it would be encouraged for practice. And what about for non-elite skaters. My other sport is curling and our club has had several discussions lately about concussions. At the club level you have a lot of people curling who are not athletes and don't have some of the advantages that come with that (like strong neck muscles and basic agility). Not every skater on the ice is an athelete to the level of an elite skater --like the younger girls. We have a policy now at the curling club that if anyone hits their head, even if it is minor, we call the ambulance and have them checked out. I'm just as disturbed that Ashley said she fell and was not even looked at. Calling the ambulance every time might be a bit extreme, but every skater should at least stop skating and be checked out by someone with first aid knowledge. My daughter doesn't always wear the Crasche that we got her, but she knows to come off the ice and tell me if she hit her head. I'll give her the basic check over and if she seems fine we won't go to the doctor, but I'll keep an eye on her for the rest of the day to make sure no symptoms develop. And I almost always pull her off the ice for the rest of the day as a precaution. Because a second hit on the head doesn't just double the injury, it increases it exponentially.

The Crasche headband and Ice Halo potentially looks cool, and would at least mitigate the effect of hitting the head on the ice.

A big reason that a lot of skateboarders don't wear helmets is because it's not "cool." None of their idols wear helmets, and when they do, it's with an air of, oh, my corporate sponsors are making me wear this stupid helmet but normally I don't do it.

If just one of the big, cool skaters would wear a headband or halo to the Olympics competition, I think that would really change people's minds on concussions and helmets. That's when the media attention is the greatest. Naturally the headband will attract a lot of curiosity and questions by news channels. The Olympic year is the best time to enact change.

What if Evan had worn a headband during his Vancouver win, and told the media about his 15-20 concussions? Maybe Hanyu could have had a milder head injury.
What if Rachael Flatt worn a headband during her Olympics? Maybe she wouldn't have to do as much concussion awareness PR today.
What if someone from the 80s or 90s had said something about their head injuries? Maybe Ashley would still be able to do math today.



People like Dick Button can just go away.

Dick Button: "You don't get these people pulling together costumes and music and choreography and presentation ... and then expect these girls to go out there and wear a helmet."

https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/winter/2005-01-12-notebook-helmets_x.htm

Dick Button: "What happened was that I must have tried a jump, and I fell. I've skated all my life and I've never fallen. All of a sudden this time, whammo, and it happened unexpectedly. When I fell, all I know is the blood was coming out of my ear. I had a concussion, and I lost the hearing in this ear."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/17/hln.bio.button/

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think this could be its own topic. There's a lot to discuss as to why skating equipment hasn't had a huge overhaul (though skating boots have evolved somewhat with triples and quads becoming normalized) and why skating is one of the few high-risk sports to not force their skaters to wear protective gear (they're more concerned with making sure ice dance ladies have at least 40% of their upperbody covered for the Latin SDs). We can go through the pros and cons and why helmets are or are not the answer.

 

[Shayuki]

I saw the pictures on her instagram and I came here to comment how brave she is to do something like this, how empowering it must be, etc.

But the talk about concussions and helmets, I believe if it's an issue within the figure skating world it SHOULD be talk about, safety comes first even if doesn't look pretty, I can't believe concussions have had this much impact in her life and still she's against the use of helmets.

A problem with helmets is, well... They don't really prevent concussions, I'm afraid. You can have a concussion even if your head never hits anything, just due to a sudden reversal of momentum.

But personally, I feel like there should be a sort of a quota for concussions and after reaching it, you really should retire for your own sake. I'm afraid 5 concussions already is beyond what would be suggested. There have been some stories about hockey players and the long-term effects of concussions well after retiring, with numerous such ex-players dying before the age of 50.

I'm sure the issue is even bigger with NFL but I don't follow it at all.

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy

Well, Joshua Farris has had at least four, and he even retired and only came back after he completely healed.

By the way, you cannot "heal" from concussions. They're permanent.

 

[TGee]

Oh okay, I didn't realize. I guess we shouldn't have helmets in figure skating then, because they don't prevent every single concussion.

Thing to consider is whether, on balance they would cause more concussions and other injuries.

Spinning and jumping in a helmet that is not 100% immobile is a hazard in itself. Consider also the increased risk of collisions due to the reduced field of vision. Figure skaters training move each to his/her own program....not really analogous to hockey.

 

[Skatingcat]

This should definitely be a different thread but until then, I have had at least three concussions- none were fun, and I am sure they were not nearly as severe as the ones Ashley and other skaters have had. After hitting the pavement )I was hit by a Carl while riding my bike) I lost a chunk Of hair off the side of The came into contact with the cement. What the skaters go...brutal.

And yes, sadly, helmets don.t help with concussions.

http://concussion.weillcornell.org/does-helmet-protect-me-against-concussion

 

[brightphoton]

Thing to consider is whether, on balance they would cause more concussions and other injuries.

Spinning and jumping in a helmet that is not 100% immobile is a hazard in itself. Consider also the increased risk of collisions due to the reduced field of vision. Figure skaters training move each to his/her own program....not really analogous to hockey.

What do you think? Perhaps you can fill in the blanks with your guestimates. I'm not being snarky, as I usually am.

Number of concussions:

Evan without helmet: 15 - 20
Evan with helmet: ______?

Ashley without helmet: 5
Ashley with helmet: _______?

Josh F without helmet: 3
Josh F with helmet: ______?

Hanyu without helmet: 1? Maybe?
Hanyu with helmet: ______?

 

[karne]

Josh F without helmet: 3
Josh F with helmet: ______?

3, because they were all whiplash.

Hanyu without helmet: 1? Maybe?
Hanyu with helmet: ______?

1, because again, his was a whiplash from the collision - and if he'd been wearing a helmet, maybe it would have actually been worse.

Nobody here is saying helmets are useless. What we're trying to get through to you is that they are not the be-all-end-all-cure-all for preventing concussions. Whiplash concussion is a REAL thing and a helmet won't do jack squat to prevent it unless it's a motorsport-style helmet with HANS device anchored down.

 

[brightphoton]

3, because they were all whiplash.



1, because again, his was a whiplash from the collision - and if he'd been wearing a helmet, maybe it would have actually been worse.

Nobody here is saying helmets are useless. What we're trying to get through to you is that they are not the be-all-end-all-cure-all for preventing concussions. Whiplash concussion is a REAL thing and a helmet won't do jack squat to prevent it unless it's a motorsport-style helmet with HANS device anchored down.

So what? You're going to advocate for the status-quo, do nothing, don't even bother trying to wear anything on your head?

 

[TGee]

So what? You're going to advocate for the status-quo, do nothing, don't even bother trying to wear anything on your head?

Helmets help more with prevention of head fractures from actually hitting the head...which are relatively rare. More often the head gets shaken when the rest of the body hits the ice...

Well, there are a few things that I've heard that would materially help:

1] including neck strengthening in conditioning training to prevent/reduce/mitigate the whiplash injuries

2] educating coaches to get a skater off the ice once there has been a serious percussive fall....

...some argue that concussions are more likely to happen when skaters are just out of a harness and learning high rotation jumps at speed. After a few hard falls, the skater can be quite shaken and take increasingly harder falls.... This is a 'more pain, less gain' and more risk of serious injury scenario...

There are also some new products that are not helmets, but are argued to be helpful to some extent for actual hits to the head. In some areas, they are popular for skaters just making the transition out of basic skating. These include hats with shock linings and specialized headband. They do fit the head and don't move, don't reduce visibility, but don't claim to have the shock absorbing ability of, say, a motorcycle helmet.

 

[brightphoton]

...some argue that concussions are more likely to happen when skaters are just out of a harness and learning high rotation jumps at speed. After a few hard falls, the skater can be quite shaken and take increasingly harder falls.... This is a 'more pain, less gain' and more risk of serious injury scenario...

I've read several articles about senior skaters who had concussions, and a lot of them said they get concussions from even easy elements. Like crossovers, three turns, tripping on the toepick...


I'd wager that the classic head hits the ice scenario is not the rare occurrence that some people think it is. I've already included the video footage of Naomi Nam hitting her head on a Lutz attempt, and Evan said he's seen many skaters nail their heads to the ice.

Even if hitting the head on the ice were rare, I'd advocate for skaters to wear something, anything on their heads. Headbands, halos, helmets, cheeseheads, it doesn't matter. It needs to be a norm/cool to have some sort of head protection. Later technology can improve so that this works better, or that prevents this, or this material absorbs force, shock absorber, etc. But that improvement is never even going to get started if people are just like, well, oh, whiplash too bad, helmets useless, can't help it. Carry on exactly as you were.

 

[narcissa]

Hanyu without helmet: 1? Maybe?
Hanyu with helmet: ______?

1, because again, his was a whiplash from the collision - and if he'd been wearing a helmet, maybe it would have actually been worse.

Yuzu didn't get a concussion from the collision, unless you don't believe official reports. :confused2:

 

[Barb]

Figure skating is hardly popular, put them helmets, and it will be dead. People watch figure skating mainly because of their aesthetics.

 

[GrandmaCC]

Sounds like a helmet would cause more risk of injury, blocking peripheral vision, changing weight ratios...and they're not going to do anything to strengthen the neck muscles, which as Ashley said, seems to be more of a factor in preventing or lessening the impact of injury.
Surely they'd also be of help only in event of a direct hit to the top of the head, Something which we rarely see?

I'd be more interested in the "butt pads" worn by Tessa Hong and whether the cushioning they offer can prevent spinal damage or nerve damage.
I know people have scoffed at the notion of a tailbone injury causing neurological symptoms, but we've had a neurologist here theorise that damage or restriction to nerves in the groin can indeed cause problems through the spine, and in the brain.

 

[brightphoton]

Figure skating is hardly popular, put them helmets, and it will be dead. People watch figure skating mainly because of their aesthetics.

Did you know that in the late 1980s and early 1990s, shoulder pads were the height of figure skating fashion? Obviously horrifying to watch in retrospect, but at the time there were considered in vogue. If those could be considered fashionable, then anything can be considered fashionable.

Let's make helmets/headbands/halos and buttpads fashionable. Add some sequins to them or something.

I'd be more interested in the "butt pads" worn by Tessa Hong and whether the cushioning they offer can prevent spinal damage or nerve damage. I know people have scoffed at the notion of a tailbone injury causing neurological symptoms, but we've had a neurologist here theorise that damage or restriction to nerves in the groin can indeed cause problems through the spine, and in the brain.

Yuzu didn't get a concussion from the collision, unless you don't believe official reports. :confused2:

I know what the official reports say, and I'm skeptical of them. See below:

I'm sure the issue is even bigger with NFL but I don't follow it at all.

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy

I also don't follow football, but I did catch the latest concussion uproar. At the last Superbowl, most attractive NFL quarterback Tom Brady again led his team to victory. But his also very attractive supermodel wife Giselle Bundchen said offhand, that she wished Tom would quit because he's had so many concussions and it's not good for his health.

Then the NFL said no, it looks like in our official records, Tom never had a concussion and he never played with a concussion, how dare you say that, woman? And that was that.

But then a whole bunch of other NFL players and former NFL players came out of the woodwork. One after another, they started saying things like, they too had concussions and would hide it from the coach and doctor, or they would cheat the questions that doctors would ask them to make it seem like they didn't have a concussion, as the questions asked were easily rehearsed (what day is today, when was the last game, does your head hurt, etc).
Sometimes they knew they had a concussion but felt like they still had to play because their team was counting on them, or their team would call them effeminate taunts, or they didn't want their career to end, they didn't want their contract to be terminated. Older former NFL players went to the media talking about the health problems they suffered from concussions, memory problems, dementia, some had suicidal thoughts because their cognitive function had declined so much.

The NFL felt very sad about this, because now fewer youth are playing football, in part because their parents read those articles and don't enroll their children in a sport that treats concussions as common and expected.

Concussions have been happening for many many years, but this time, it got maximum news coverage. All because a very cool and handsome football idol's equally cool and handsome wife spoke up about the issue, right at peak media time, during the Superbowl.

Figure skating isn't in the same league of popularity as NFL football, but Ashley knows how to get media attention for her cause. She's talking about concussions during an Olympic year, she got naked to get people's eyes to read an article about concussions, and I would bet the house that she's going to continue to talk about concussions until she arrives at PyeongChang, counter jinx.

 

[skylark]

Ashley knows how to get media attention for her cause. She's talking about concussions during an Olympic year, she got naked to get people's eyes to read an article about concussions,

Can you give your source for saying that's why Ashley "got naked"?

The first half of the interview is all about showing (and telling) that a female figure skater's body is athletic, muscular and strong, and womanly. Well, the photos show. The interview tells.

I do agree that she shared her experience of concussions to support athletes, particularly figure skaters, taking head injuries more seriously than was perhaps common several years ago. Getting them diagnosed and treated right away.

 

[gkelly]

How about saying:
Let's do something about the problem of concussions in figure skating. Beginning with research into the prevalance, causes, and possible prevention measures in training at all levels of the sport. The latter should include trials of different kinds of protective headgear to discover how well they prevent injury and to what degree they interfere with safe or effective practice of the sport. What modifications might increase the benefits and decrease the risks?

Not:
Everything I know about figure skating I learned from watching videos and reading interviews. I know that concussions are bad and that helmets have helped in completely different sports. So let's require figure skaters to wear helmets without doing any research.

 

[bevybean]

If we are worrying about fans not watching skaters with helmets, what about requiring tailbone pads, hip pads and something for the head during practice. Do most injuries happen during a competition or during training time? Especially for the figure skaters who are not at the elite level. Let's not forget that just because you are taking skating lessons, doesn't mean you are athletic to the degree that the elite skaters are.

Some mentioned placing limits based on the number of concussions. While that sounds like a good idea, it could encourage more skaters to "hide" their concussions so they can keep skating. Also, I've had a couple of concussions, but they were mild. I would bet that I suffered less from them than 1 of Ashley's. So, a blanket statement of "5 concussions and you're out" isn't an accurate assessment of the skaters.

I agree with gkelly that more research needs to be done.

 

[gkelly]

If we are worrying about fans not watching skaters with helmets, what about requiring tailbone pads, hip pads and something for the head during practice. Do most injuries happen during a competition or during training time?

Obviously most injuries happen during training time:
Skaters spend many more hours per year training than competing, they spend more time working on risky moves that they haven't quite mastered yet, and there tend to be more other skaters on the ice.

However, it would be impossible to require any sort of protective measure during training, because there's no centralized way to enforce what happens on practice ice, much of which occurs on ice time run not by skating clubs, but by rinks, over whom the figure skating federations have no authority.

What could be done would be require coaches to complete education as to best practices according to current knowledge and to disseminate that information to club officers as well as to the membership at large targeting skaters and parents.

If there is some practice that proves advisable for all skaters to implement at all training sessions, federations could require clubs to require it on their own ice time including training sessions, test sessions, competitions, and shows, and during group classes sponsored by the federation.

But that will have no effect, aside from leading by example, on what skaters do when practicing on public sessions or rink-sponsored freestyle or dance sessions, when there may be no figure skating authority figures in the building.

 

[bevybean]

However, it would be impossible to require any sort of protective measure during training, because there's no centralized way to enforce what happens on practice ice, much of which occurs on ice time run not by skating clubs, but by rinks, over whom the figure skating federations have no authority.

I keep forgetting that other rinks aren't as integrated as ours. The director of our FS program is employed by the rink, coaches both private and group lessons, and is involved with the club. She could easily make it a club rule as well as a rink rule. They do currently require helmets for the kids just starting lessons, but once you get to Basic 4, you can choose whether of not to wear one.