Away with Quads!!

[antmanb]

If I could write the rules, I would immediately place a ban on all quad jumps. The most difficult jumps, therefore, would be triple axels.

Haven't you all seen the proliferation of serious injuries among the men during the past decade or so - thanks in large part to their continuous practice of quad jumps. All of that pounding, hard landings, and falls have resulted in many serious muscle, joint, and skeletal injuries. Timothy Goebel, Johnny Weir, Michael Weiss, Takesi Honda, Emanuel Sandhu, Alexi Yagudin, Evgeni Plushenko, etc. These guys have all missed competitions and months of practice due to their skating-induced injuries.

Timothy Goebel's career has risen and fallen, IMHO. He will never be the skater who landed three quads at Skate America and who won two World silver medals and an Olympic bronze medal. Michael Weiss has been injured so many times - how long can he take the physical punishment?

If you look back at the era preceding the elimination of school figures - the champions of that era - Scott Hamilton, Brian Orser, Brian Boitano, etc. - competed at numerous Worlds and Olympics, injury-free. I recall that Viktor Petrenko was injured when he competed at the 1989 Worlds, and that it was considered quite unusual for a top skater to be injured. Today, it's almost expected that that men will suffer at least one major injury in their pursuit of the quad jump.

Of course, some of the women overdo it, too. Midori Ito had serious ankle and foot injures, as the result of landing so many triple axels.

Where will it all end? By the time Goebel and his peers reach the age of 40, they'll be lucky if they can still walk, let along skate.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ALREADY!!!!!

While i do agree with you that the male skaters are getting more injuries, that's not to say that skaters of previous eras didn't get injured. Robin cousins and his notorious knees which still give troubles nowadays (including knee surgery a few years ago). He famously hurt his knee and had to qwithdraw from a competition because of nasty fall attempting triple axels in practice. I believe John Curry also had some injuries adn he wasn't even attemting the higher tier triples.

I think any sport with so much jumping will cause injuries, i just don't know what the solution should be but banning quads i think is a little too extreme.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I think of skaters such as Brian Joubert and Timothy Goebel, both of whom rely heavily on their ability to land quads to score high in skating competitions. Goebel has been injured so many times, and while Joubert seems to have remained healthy, he has had problems with his quads and has messed up a few of his major competitions, accordingly.

Without the quad, Johnny Weir probably doesn't stand a chance to medal at Torino, and he's one of the best all-around, artistic/athletic skaters around today. It does't seem fair to me.

Without the quad, Todd Eldredge didn't medal at the 1998 or the 2002 Olympics, despite the fact that he skated very well. Again, it doesn't seem fair to me.

Do you really think Todd skated well in 1998? He totally missed the podium and the only skater to land a clean qaud was Kulik wasn't it? Elvis had his groin injury and he tripled out on his attempt and i think Yagudin was sick as dog and fell on his quad. If Todd had skated clean and well he'd have easily won the silver or bronze but he had a meltdown in his LP, it wasn't his lack of a quad jump that hampered him in 1998. I can't rememebr his program at 2002 Olympics but i seem to recall him skating well. Also Elvis landed two quads in the LP in 2002 but that didn't help him get anywhere near the top.

Ant

 

[Spirit]

I don't mind them- if someone can do it and others can't, he should be rewarded.

Yeah, that.

Folks, isn't telling a skater not to do a quad kind of like telling a mountain climber not to climb the highest mountain, but pick a shorter one instead because it's safer?

Skaters know the score. It's a sport, not a quilting bee. If they want to jump, let 'em jump. I know some other moves are also banned, such as back flips, and I don't understand that, either.

 

[Mathman]

I think back flips are banned because it is not skating.

 

[Spirit]

I think back flips are banned because it is not skating.

Are you being serious? As in, "It's not skating during the second that the blades are not touching the ice?"

 

[jenaj]

I think back flips are banned because it is not skating.

Then Biellmanns should be banned because they are yoga positions.

 

[emma]

Then Biellmanns should be banned because they are yoga positions.

OMG...that was too funny!

 

[julietvalcouer]

I think the backflips are banned because A) they are by their inherent nature dangerous--if you fail to complete a quad, you might land on your butt or stress your knees and hip. Fall out of a backflip at the wrong moment and you can smash open your skull or snap your neck--you are in midair, with no partner there to spot if something goes wrong. And B) because they are a circus stunt making no use of your edges or any skating-related skills. The Bielmann is a position that makes a skating skill (spinning) more difficult by changing your body position and therefore your center of gravity.

I'm of mixed opinions on the quad. I appreciate the need to push yourself as high and as hard as you can go. On the other hand, I don't think a quad should be the difference between first and second place. The 3-2-2 requires a huge amount of strenght, too. If a skater can put together an atheltic program with good in-betweens and strong jumping without the quad, and they skate it clean, they should beat someone who has a clean quad but fewer jumps or inferior in-between work. (No, I'm not defending Johnny Weir, as I don't consider flapping around the ice in a poor immitation of Pavlova's dying swan as good artistry, but if he skated a strong technical program with "only" clean triples and no quad attempt, he should beat someone who had a program with a quad but fewer combinations or not as good MIF/connecting work.)

 

[Mathman]

Are you being serious? As in, "It's not skating during the second that the blades are not touching the ice?"

ISU rule #45957: In any skating jump the blades must be pointing down, thus maintaining spiritual contact with the ice."

Rule #45957a: Exception to rule #45957:

http://slides.sitewelder.com/users/RickRickman739/images/RickRickman73953797.jpg

No but seriously, I think JulietV is right about the "making no use of your edges or any skating related skill" thing. IIRC the backflip was originally disapproved because it was landed on two feet with no exit edge. Then Surya started landing it on an edge (at least as much of an edge as she landed her other jumps) as a part of her backflip/triple Salchow combination, so they had to outlaw it specifically instead of on these general grounds.

MM

 

[Spirit]

ISU rule #45957: In any skating jump the blades must be pointing down, thus maintaining spiritual contact with the ice."

Okay, that was good. It took me almost half a minute to realize this was a joke. It sounded so much like something they would really say, like the "invisible connection with the audience."

Then Surya started landing it on an edge...so they had to outlaw it specifically instead of on these general grounds.

As opposed to just going ahead and making it legal because it could be landed on an edge?

Feh. Feh, I say! The ways of the Force I understand, but not the ways of the ISU.

 

[gkelly]

As far as I know, the reasoning behind backflips being illegal has always been that they don't rely on skating technique. The landing on an edge part was never an official reason, it was just something that commentators brought up when Bonaly showed that they could be landed on an edge. But they don't take off from an edge or use the curve of an edge to generate the rotation the way regular jumps do.

Skaters can also do cartwheels or forward or backward rolls on the ice and sometimes do in exhibition programs. Would it be appropriate for those moves, which are easier gymnastics moves than backflips, to be credited in lower-level skating programs. Maybe a new skater doesn't have an axel yet, but she can do a cartwheel and get just as many points that way?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

As far as I know, the reasoning behind backflips being illegal has always been that they don't rely on skating technique. The landing on an edge part was never an official reason, it was just something that commentators brought up when Bonaly showed that they could be landed on an edge. But they don't take off from an edge or use the curve of an edge to generate the rotation the way regular jumps do.

Skaters can also do cartwheels or forward or backward rolls on the ice and sometimes do in exhibition programs. Would it be appropriate for those moves, which are easier gymnastics moves than backflips, to be credited in lower-level skating programs. Maybe a new skater doesn't have an axel yet, but she can do a cartwheel and get just as many points that way?

How do you feel about Butterflies. I think they are in the same category but much less difficult.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

Are you being serious? As in, "It's not skating during the second that the blades are not touching the ice?"

I think the thought process is that its gymnastic ability rather than skating ability in order to pull off verticle rotating ability. The thought process is - if you want to watch gymnastics you can do but not in skating.

The second reason has always been that you can hurt yourself much more easily and much more dangerously trying to learn back flips on ice.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think the thought process is that its gymnastic ability rather than skating ability in order to pull off verticle rotating ability. The thought process is - if you want to watch gymnastics you can do but not in skating.Ant

And if you want to see better Bielmans go to Cirque du Soleil; or better spirals go to the Ballet. Figure Skating has its limitations.

What is it about fs that one never sees a verticle rotation jump from a forward takeoff and landing on a forward outside edge (think a forward loop jump)?

Joe

 

[gkelly]

We often see half-revolution jumps landing forward, usually on a toepick pushing onto a forward inside or outside edge on the other foot. Most programs you see today will include at least one or two falling leafs, half-flips or half-lutzes, mazurkas, split jumps, or the like.

Less often one-revolution (axel takeoff) or one-and-a-half jumps landing forward.

Even less often any of them landing on a forward edge without the toe assist, just because the forward edge is much less stable to land on than a backward, especially back outer edge.

These jumps were more common in the days when doubles, triples, and quads were not the primary determinant of technical content. They're considered more as transitions than as technical elements.

I think we won't ever see two revolutions or more with a forward landing on purpose just because it will look like an incomplete attempt at a double axel or triple. 1.5 revolution jumps also run the risk of looking like failed doubles, and under the current rules they would count as bad singles and take up a spot that could have been used for a triple, but they were rare even before this system.

Trying to land only on the forward edge without a toepick assist after more than one revolution would just be asking to fall on your face.

 

[antmanb]

And if you want to see better Bielmans go to Cirque du Soleil; or better spirals go to the Ballet. Figure Skating has its limitations.

What is it about fs that one never sees a verticle rotation jump from a forward takeoff and landing on a forward outside edge (think a forward loop jump)?

Joe

I think it would be an impossibility given the mechanics of the toe pick. You can do every jump landing forwards but it has to be a toe assisted landing from one foot pushing into an edge glide on the other foot. The toe pick is made so that the teeth stick out perpendicular to the part of the blade they're attahced to. If you landed forwards on the pick then you'd immediately do a "face plant" on the landing. It very dangerous to land a jump purely on an edge since that edge can slip out frmo under you very easily if you don't land on the pick first. You also don't absorb any shock through teh pick if you try to land on an edge so you can do more damage to ankle/hip/knee.

For forward landing jumps see Robin Cousins' beaultiful one a half flip - usual flip take off, one and a half turns in the air and a right toe assist push into a LFO edge, he often then immediately does a LFO three turn into double flip. Its a very pretty combination.

Ant

 

[SkateFan4Life]

I hope the Olympic men's freeskate doesn't generate into a splatfest, with the men knocking themselves out with quad attempts. How many programs have become messy and disjointed due to splattering falls with quads.

Give me a well-choreographed, well-rounded program with triples, spins, and footwork ANY TIME over a messy program with quad spills.

 

[rain]

I've hesitated a little to weigh in on this discussion, because I can see both sides of the argument and wasn't quite sure where I stood.
However, after some thought and reading all of the excellent posts here, I have to say I come down on the side of getting rid of the quads.
Yeah, I get that this is sport and you want to have people pushing the technical side of it.
But in this case I think the short history of the quad has shown us the risks outweigh the rewards on the whole (and no, I'm not talking about specific competition results for skaters).
Not many guys are successfully landing quads these days, plain and simple. With the advent of COP there are so many other technical aspects for them to work on eg. three-jump combinations, triple/triples, spins, footwork. I personally have no yearning for the return of the day when an empty program with three two or three quads in it won the day. It's simply more fun for me to watch a skater do a great program without one, with a full compliment of other difficult elements.
And I think the most persuasive argument is the pounding it takes on the bodies of the athletes. I don't know that I've ever heard of so many very serious and career ending injuries to skaters as I have since the advent of the quad, with guys trying to do them competition after competition, year after year. I'd rather see skaters with a longer career because they didn't wreck themselves.

 

[mzheng]

Now we are talking about bann quad in guys. But how about the 3Axl and quad for girls/ladies?

By natural women's body (wide on hip, with curved upper body) enduring more 'tourture' by doing those jumps than men. Yet we also have a thread with shall or shall not apply the age limit rule or shall Mao get exception of age rule. Girls body has the physicall advantage than matured women....Maybe it's time for the sport to consider seperate.

About the higed skate, it was reported tha most skaters don't like it because its lack of support at ankle.

 

[antmanb]

I hope the Olympic men's freeskate doesn't generate into a splatfest, with the men knocking themselves out with quad attempts. How many programs have become messy and disjointed due to splattering falls with quads.

Give me a well-choreographed, well-rounded program with triples, spins, and footwork ANY TIME over a messy program with quad spills.

While i do agree in pricnciple, wht do you call a mesy program with quad spills?

Thikning back to Elvis's days when he was going for the quad in every LP, sometimes he'd step out, some times he'd sit down on the attempt and sometimes would outright fall. It was often his second or third jumping pass in a program and it was often the only thing he missed, he'd then lay down the full 8 triples with at least one if not two 3/3 combinations. I don't think taking a spill on the biggest jump element for him detracted from teh rest of the program. Of course there are many other skaters who fall to pieces when they fall (or sometimes even when they land!) their big risky element.

Elvis you can distinguish on the basis that there are several other skaters who's spins and footwork were better, but what would you do with someone like Yags who equally was very capapable of taking a tumble on his quad but then laying down the 8 other trilpes with two 3/3 combinations. I think i'd give a Yags program with 8 triples and fall on a quad the nod over most of the current crop with the full 8 triples and no quad attempt.

It all dpeneds on the skater and what a "messy quad fall" program means.

Ant