B&S vs S&P - revisit 2001 worlds and SLC pairs

[mathman444]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...hell no..

To M Zheng: Well, of course it's OK to bring up old competitions, or any other topic pertaining to figure skating, on this board. Don't worry about people picking on you -- I've got your back.

Mathman

 

[Jaana]

My 2 cents contribution...

As far as I remember S&P won in WC 2001 because their programme was more difficult (and had faults). B&S skated to an (almost?) faultless free skate there, but it was an easier programme. In SLC the same should have happened: B&S had there a little fault, but a more difficult programme against the easier (faultless?) programme by S&P.

BTW, isn´t it so that if the French judge´s scores would be left out, the skaters would be even, but B&S would win because they won the short programme in SLC?

Marjaana

 

[mathman444]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

No, I don't think so. If one of the judges cannot perform his/her duties, then the scores of the alternate judge are counted instead. It this case the alternate judge went with Sale and Pelletier.

In the case where a judge's scores are thrown out <em>after</em> the event is over, I don't think there is a rule about that because it never happened before.

Mathman

 

[thvudragon]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As far as I remember S&P won in WC 2001 because their programme was more difficult (and had faults). B&S skated to an (almost?) faultless free skate there, but it was an easier programme. In SLC the same should have happened: B&S had there a little fault, but a more difficult programme against the easier (faultless?) programme by S&P.
[/quote]

Overall, B&S's program was more difficult when it comes to the construction, linking elements, etc. The only part in S&P's program that i see as more difficult, in a placement sense, were the sbs jumps, S&P had their's in the second half of the program. Anyway, in both cases, B&S had the more difficult program. Also, Chaplin was such a different program than things being done, I'm sure some of the NA judges were put off by that. Also, I want to know exactly how many judges didn't know about S&P's mistake in 2001 Worlds, only 2 have admitted it, I wonder who they are..........

TV

 

[mzheng]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">In the case where a judge's scores are thrown out after the event is over, I don't think there is a rule about that because it never happened before.</blockquote>

I read somewhere at web. There was a presidence that when the LP tied then all phases placement took into calculation.

I believe under CoP in both cases B&S would've won rightfully. Since their programs are more difficult, constructed with a lot intrigue moves. And morever the score in SP and LP are cumedrative. I think in both cases B&S's SP score would've madeup more than enough to that 'can go either way LP'.

 

[mathman444]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

I can't speak for these particular judges, of course, but I think that almost everybody in figure skating, and especially the fans, were blown away by Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze's <em>Chaplin.</em> This was one of the all-time innovative competitive pairs programs, both in conception and in execution.

But Tristan and Isolde was a masterpiece, too, especially the way they used the music to carry the skating. I love any Lori Nichol program.

BTW, I thought that the reason Sale and Pelletier went back to <em>Love Story</em> was that they did <em>Orchid</em> so badly at Canadian Nationals, compared to how well they did Love Story at the Grand Prix Finals.

Mathman

 

[rgirl181]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

Mzheng,
ITA that under the COP B&S would have won the Olympics by a significant margin. As you said, their programs were more difficult, constructed with a lot intricate connecting moves. They also did a lot more one foot skating whereas S&P did a lot of two-foot skating in "Love Story." IMO, "Love Story" had great emotional impact for people who like that kind of style, but IMO it did not have the technical content for a competitive program. But I agree with Mathman that S&P chose to do it instead of "Orchid" because they had serious problems with "Orchid" at Canadian Nationals and at the GPF, "Love Story" went over very well. Also, unfortunately B&S got a late start on "Meditation by Thais," which as much as I hate to say it is Tamara Moskvina's fault. Maybe she had her reasons, but for such a difficult, intricate piece, B&S should have had more practice doing it at competitions than they did. Even so, in my book B&S's SLC performance of "Meditation," even with its flaws, still beats S&P's "Love Story" because except for one of the lifts, which was spectacular, it was technically very simple.

And true, Mzheng, the SP and the LP scores are cumulative, although I forget the percentages. I agree that B&S's SP combined with the LP would have been enough to give B&S the gold.

Having said all this, see S&P with SOI this year, they were GREAT show skaters. B&S only had one program that showed their best skills and no it wasn't the Elvis and Marilyn one, lol. But S&P are great at working the crowd as they do high energy or sexy programs. They are a great pair team, I just think that B&S have more depth and were better as eligible skaters, the problems with "Meditation" not having enough practice at competitions notwithstanding.
Rgirl

 

[mzheng]

Re: Rgirl

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Having said all this, see S&P with SOI this year, they were GREAT show skaters. B&S only had one program that showed their best skills and no it wasn't the Elvis and Marilyn one, lol. But S&P are great at working the crowd as they do high energy or sexy programs. They are a great pair team, I just think that B&S have more depth and were better as eligible skaters, the problems with "Meditation" not having enough practice at competitions notwithstanding.[/quote]

Rgirl, I agree with your that S&P are great at working crowd and with a lot of facial expression especially Jamie. B&S's numbers usually are more subtle, intrigue and they just grab me. B&S's and Yag's Oly program were the only ones I re-watched several times. Each time I watched B&S's LP I hold my breath just like Michelle's this year's world.

 

[Spirit889]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>ITA that under the COP B&S would have won the Olympics by a significant margin. As you said, their programs were more difficult, constructed with a lot intricate connecting moves. They also did a lot more one foot skating whereas S&P did a lot of two-foot skating in "Love Story." IMO, "Love Story" had great emotional impact for people who like that kind of style, but IMO it did not have the technical content for a competitive program.[/quote]

Not being argumentative here, just asking a question: B&S's LP had very little enthusiasm and energy, so much so that as I watched, I couldn't understand what everyone saw in them (my opinion has changed since then, they're a great pair, but that night they were dull), while S&P had so much enthusiasm and energy during their LP that they glowed.

Does this count for anything, either under the old system or the new? I feel it should.

 

[Piel]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

Who knows as far as the judges are concerned? I do think that it matters to the audience. Love Story was a more accessible program to the average viewer. Mr. and Ms. middle America could "get" it. That along with the personal love story of the skaters combined with Jamie and David's charisma, add the OGM and you have the perfect ending to the story. It pulled you in and even if they would have had a not so great skate the majority of the audience would probably still have wanted them to win. If anyone thinks that audience response isn't important consider all of the shall we say North American friendly music that was chosen for the Olympics by the skaters.

Piel

 

[rgirl181]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

Spirit,
I agree with Piel that "Love Story" had more audience impact. Whether it should count with the judges is for a whole other thread. Afterall, if audience impact counted with the judges, Phillippe Candeloro taking off his shirt would earn 6.0s:lol:

Seriously, one thing we cannot evaluate is how the program came across in person since we were not there. Also, even it the program as a whole didn't excite people, I don't think it means it was a bad program. I think it's best when a technically difficult program also moves the audience, like Shen and Zhao's "Turandot" did (their '03 Worlds performance probably would have won the gold in SLC, IMO), but IMO, being limited to TV, I still think B&S's technical difficulty and still beautiful presentation beat S&P's "Love Story." I'm also taking into account how much of the enthusiasm for "Love Story" was because it was a largely North American audience in the arena and being able to voice their opinons as television watchers because the Olympics were in SLC. I wonder how things would have been had the Olympics been held in Prague, Odessa, or some other Eastern European country or former Soviet country. My bet would be that it would have been very different and not just because of politics but also because of cultural differences. OTOH, "Baywatch" is the most popular TV show in the world:rollin: Just kidding, I think there would be a difference.
Rgirl

 

[berthes ghost]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

Ok, let me get this straight.

People in the Checz Republic and the Ukrain are all familiar with ballet and classical music as well as the finer points of figure skating, so Joe Smo off the street could tell which overhead lift was more difficult.

People in Canada and the US only understand pulp novels and mainstream movies. Who cares about actual skating, just as long as teh program has a good boy meets girl theme to it.

Sorry, but I think that the only thing you hit the nail on the head with was 'Baywatch' being universally popular.

 

[thvudragon]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Not being argumentative here, just asking a question: B&S's LP had very little enthusiasm and energy, so much so that as I watched, I couldn't understand what everyone saw in them (my opinion has changed since then, they're a great pair, but that night they were dull), while S&P had so much enthusiasm and energy during their LP that they glowed.

Does this count for anything, either under the old system or the new? I feel it should. [/quote]

It doesn't and IMO, shouldn't. Now, I'm sure some judges are influenced by the "audience factor", but this should no be the case. Look at 2003 Worlds dance. Neither pair had much enthusiasm, or "energy" but the US audience cheered like crazy for B&K because they're canadian, but gave hesitant applaush towards L&A. IMO, L&A had more enthusiasm, expression, and energy than B&K, but as I said, that has nothing to do with it. The US audience just fails to comprehend anything but "are they north american?" or "so and so didn't fall, but so and so did!". Of course, there are exceptions to every case.

TV

 

[Piel]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

BG,

I am not saying that one program is better than the other, but the majority of the people watching the Olympics here in North America do know more about Love Story than they do about figure skating. The choreography made it easy to follow the story as most people know it from the movie. When it was released the movie and song both made such an impact on pop culture especially to the baby boomers that make up a large part of the audience. Compare that to the program of B&S...the average person watching TV had no idea what the music was or the story. After the Olympics I questioned just about everyone I know that watched as to which pair they thought should have won. (Mind you that these are people who don't follow skating or only watch maybe worlds and the Olympics.) All of them chose S&P with reasons like it was cute, especially the snowball fight, I loved the movie, the song reminded my of my prom, to they seemed to be so excited after they skated. And you're right, they really didn't care about the actual skating. As long as no one falls or stumbles the average person thinks that it is a perfect skate. That's how most people called it. As for the boy meets girl theme that is a theme that most people can relate to. Of course the judges are a whole other story as they do know (well, are supposed to know) what they're looking for as well as know the music and story. Love Story was a simpler program but I think to the average person it was more entertaining. That's not a reason for it to have won, but it is a reason that so many were pulling for it instead of the program of B&S. Love Story gave off a vibe that the audience got into and I think that probably some of the judges got into it too. Classical pieces seem to be more respected and seen as superior to more pop culture themes to the judges and serious skating fans. I think with the general public it is just the opposite. Sometimes when the audience really gets into a program the judges do notice. Whether or not they reward it...who knows? SHOULD that affect the second mark? As a sport problaby not, as an art probably yes.

Piel

 

[mpal2]

Re: My 2 cents contribution...

"The US audience just fails to comprehend anything but "are they north american?" or "so and so didn't fall, but so and so did!". Of course, there are exceptions to every case."


thvudragon,

What is it about this topic that boils your blood and turns into nastiness? I think you are severely undestimating the US audience. And I'm not sure where you get the idea that neither B&K or L&A had no energy. I was sitting in the audience and felt plenty of engergy from both teams. L&A's was just misdirected.

I thought the audience appreciated L&A's Original Dance. I didn't hear any complaints (except for the dress). Yes, Victor made the mistake, but most of the people I spoke to thought L&A would have won it anyway.

I think the biggest reason why the US audience gave hesitant applause to L&A was because the movements didn't fit to the disjointed music. I thought the music jumped to too many selections. Most people were just sitting there going "What was that supposed to be" or "Oh my God, my eyes" (flourescent costumes throughout the entire competition); not "Oh they're Russian so I don't like them". (BTW, Shae Lynn's free dance dress wasn't exactly a great selection either. What was with the sculpture on her shoulder?)

L&A have a very beautiful style but they don't know how to move to American rock & roll. It was not their strongest program. In fact, I would say that their free dance was the equivalent of MK's Schez (JMHO). I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually liked their 911 tribute better than their rock & roll dance. It just didn't seem to fit correctly.

Watching L&A skate to tutti frutti was how I imagine Angela Nikodinov would skate to Eminem's "Lose Yourself", or any equivalent image that you can think of. Music selection can be the decision that makes or breaks a skater or team. L&A thought they could pander to an American crowd and lost the strengths in their skating. If anything, I think they underestimated the American crowd. We would have been perfectly happy watching them skate to a music selection that fit.

JMHO

 

[Bleuchick]

response

To mzheng:

First thanks for the spelling correction. I'm not a native English speeker pologize for any spelling in this post.

Me too. I am a french canadian too. At least we have that in common.

I know this is a Canadian based board.

I am 100% sure this is not true.

May be I should've not bring up the topic at this board. I thought it was OK to bring up the topic regarding old competetion since I had see so many threads here talk about the old competetion.

I thought you started off really well. I was looking forward to see what you were going to say regarding the worlds 2001/slc 2002. Then you went into tears, snooby, graciousness and etc....things that have nothing to do with the competition that took place on that night. It is one thing to say S&P should not have won because of their choreography and in-betweens(see the above GS members going at it) and another thing to say S&P should not have won because Jamie cried and because they *think* this and that.

P.S. please carry on with the debate re: worlds 2001/slc 2002.

 

[Akaira]

Re: response

I didn't think that B&S had any enthusiasm in their LP either, and when S&P lost, before any commentators said anything, I was upset. The argument here seems to mainly be that B&S had the more difficult program, so they deserved to win, even if it was flawed. (And, of course, most of you seem to think that B&S are the far better overall team) I think you can only follow that line of thinking so far before there's no point in having a competition at all. You might as well just give out the gold to the "best" team with the "best" program. I think the ranking needs to depend on performance as well as program.

 

[berthes ghost]

Re: response

"while S&P had so much enthusiasm and energy during their LP that they glowed.

Does this count for anything, either under the old system or the new? I feel it should."

"It doesn't and IMO, shouldn't."

Whah!?!

Right, enthusiasm and energy count for nothing, that must be why poor Oksana and Tara were denied gold medals over boring Nancy and Michelle.

Should is debateable, but I don't see how you can say they don't count.

 

[sk8tngcanuck]

dead horse

mzheng,

Firstly allow me to say that I cannot believe I am even dignifying this thread with a response <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=""> I am not sure of your nationality, mzheng, but in our country (ya, the one that you think this board caters to ), we have a saying about beating a dead horse. I think that rehashing this thread would qualify<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

I have read this thread in its entirety, and wasn't even going to waste the energy to respond, but you had to go and drag B/K into this mess and claim that the North American audience won them their medal. It is very apparent that you have a distinct dislike for all that is North American when it comes to dance and pairs, and I find it truly sad that you allow that to cloud what seems to be relatively good judgement as it pertains to skating. Each is allowed his/her opinion, but I fear that your negativity towards the North American audience/skaters/style will eventually rob you of the opportunity of truly feeling and experiencing a quality pairs or dance program. One day there may be a program at or above the level that S/Z showed us this year at worlds, and I think you will be so busy criticizing it just because it is North American, that you will miss the feeling behind someone else's skate of a lifetime.

 

[Jaana]

Re: dead horse

I think that L&A suffered and their performance was "killed" by a hostile audience in Washington, an audience who desperately wished them to fail in some way. Of course this is only the impression I got from live broadcast, but one can feel and sense those things even from broadcast if the audience does not give any support.

Edited to add: Of course e.g. an American skater who is narrowly competing against a Russian one in Russia, would face the same kind "treatment". Of course that though depends on whether the audience in Russia is full of Russian skating fans or if it is filled with American and Canadian skating fans...

Marjaana