Baram and Tioumentsev part ways

[gsk8]

...good luck to both of them and to Baram in her new partner search!

 

[4everchan]

Wishing them both the best for the future... I guess this will hit hard after the exceptional ruling.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Wishing them both the best for the future... I guess this will hit hard after the exceptional ruling.

Imagine being the ISU who basically made the exception almost exclusively for this pair, just for them to split before the season even started Kind of feels like that's the end of exceptional rules for a while.

 

[4everchan]

Imagine being the ISU who basically made the exception almost exclusively for this pair, just for them to split before the season even started Kind of feels like that's the end of exceptional rules for a while.

That was what was going in my mind... and of course, for those who did push hard to request an amendment to the rule... Will people who were advocating for this rule complain now that the Germans and perhaps even Canadian pairs may take advantage of it ?

 

[el henry]

Imagine being the ISU who basically made the exception almost exclusively for this pair, just for them to split before the season even started Kind of feels like that's the end of exceptional rules for a while.

Aren't there other pairs that the exception applies to? The reports of the German pairs' split, from what I understand, were not reliable. I highly doubt the entire ISU did anything to make it easier for just one country.

Also, to be very clear, I was against the exception when it was proposed, I did not think it was a good idea. But that had nothing to do with Sonia and Daniel, and whether they stayed as a pair or not, I do not believe in exceptions.

(ETA: Wow, Daniel's social media handle is "AstroDaniel". He is serious. I am always impressed by skaters who have their next chapter figured out)

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Aren't there other pairs that the exception applies to? The reports of the German pairs' split, from what I understand, were not reliable. I highly doubt the entire ISU did anything to make it easier for just one country.

I doubt the ISU would have made a rule exception just for a team that placed 13th at Jr Worlds (second to last), a team that on top of that is representing a country in which there's no money to fund junior skaters, much less to politic for them, and where junior pairs rarely last for longer than a season or two anyways. They also certainly didn't do it for the Japanese team, who split before the rule was proposed. With B/T those were the only three teams who were affected, all other teams that could profit from it are senior-eligible anyways and would not need an exception rule.

But it definitely would have been a really bad look to not allow the reigning Jr World Champions, who won with a 13+ point lead, to compete. And it certainly was in the interest of a powerful and influential federation to find a way to let their best Junior pair compete.

 

[cheerknithanson]

Wow. I can't say I'm shocked because it was going to be difficult with waiting out the age rules. But it's still sad nonetheless.

 

[el henry]

I doubt the ISU would have made a rule exception just for a team that placed 13th at Jr Worlds (second to last), a team that on top of that is representing a country in which there's no money to fund junior skaters, much less to politic for them, and where junior pairs rarely last for longer than a season or two anyways. They also certainly didn't do it for the Japanese team, who split before the rule was proposed. With B/T those were the only three teams who were affected, all other teams that could profit from it are senior-eligible anyways and would not need an exception rule.

But it definitely would have been a really bad look to not allow the reigning Jr World Champions, who won with a 13+ point lead, to compete. And it certainly was in the interest of a powerful and influential federation to find a way to let their best Junior pair compete.

Well, we have completely different conceptions of the ISU. I think the "small" feds, whose votes count just as much as "large" feds, couldn't care less about whether an American pairs team, World champs or not, gets to continue.

But since we don't know, it's all speculation on either side.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Well, we have completely different conceptions of the ISU. I think the "small" feds, whose votes count just as much as "large" feds, couldn't care less about whether an American pairs team, World champs or not, gets to continue.

But since we don't know, it's all speculation on either side.

It's not just about the vote, but about even the proposal of making an exception to the rule. I don't think anyone would have been interested in proposing exceptional rules if Ackermann/Harms had been the only affected team (The German fed most likely wouldn't have, and I doubt any other fed would have), but someone certainly would have proposed it if Baram/Tioumentsev were the only affected team.

The whole thing would have probably been brought up only at the end of this season, when more pairs will likely be affected. Pairs that actually would have been age-eligible for seniors under the old age rules.

 

[el henry]

It's not just about the vote, but about even the proposal of making an exception to the rule. I don't think anyone would have been interested in proposing exceptional rules if Ackermann/Harms had been the only affected team (The German fed most likely wouldn't have, and I doubt any other fed would have), but someone certainly would have proposed it if Baram/Tioumentsev were the only affected team.

Anybody can propose any rule, or is there is a number of sponsors needed? (I really don't know).

My point still stands: the other member countries of the ISU, IMO, have no reason to give the tiniest of hoots about Sonia and Daniel. AFAIK, they were the ones voting on the proposal.

The ISU doesn't look bad, doesn't look good, doesn't look like anything. I say that as someone who thinks the exception was a bad idea in the first place, and have said so, multiple times.

Still, best of luck to Sonia and Daniel, and to the other teams.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Anybody can propose any rule, or is there is a number of sponsors needed? (I really don't know).

My point still stands: the other member countries of the ISU, IMO, have no reason to give the tiniest of hoots about Sonia and Daniel. AFAIK, they were the ones voting on the proposal.

The ISU doesn't look bad, doesn't look good, doesn't look like anything. I say that as someone who thinks the exception was a bad idea in the first place, and have said so, multiple times.

Still, best of luck to Sonia and Daniel, and to the other teams.

Yes, anyone can propose a rule, but why would for example Norway propose a rule exception for a very small subset of junior pairs skaters when they don't even have a single pairs team?
This season, there are three countries who had a vested interest in getting exception rules - Germany (my experience says no...), Japan (would have to have been before Murakami/Moriguchi split - possible, the ISU can be very slow) or the USA.

Countries without junior pairs (of which there are a lot) have no interest in voting against the proposal, and countries that might run into the same issue in the future have an interest in voting for it (as a permanent increase of the upper age limit for pairs men could be beneficial for their future (or current) pairs).

I also didn't say this made the ISU look a certain way, I expressed how I would feel very foolish to have made an exception to the rule, just for one of the major driving forces to not even need it, and how I assume many members who voted for this proposal (not for the upcoming 2024 one!) might feel the same, and that I would not be surprised if a number of members will think twice when making rule exceptions next time (if there is a next time).

Either way, this is getting very off-topic, so maybe let's focus back on wishing Sonia a quick search for a suitable partner and success in women's in the meantime, and Daniel much luck with his academics and non-skating career (and success in skating should he ever return).

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Wishing them both the best for the future... I guess this will hit hard after the exceptional ruling.

Hit hard in what way? The 'age-gap pearl-clutchers' no longer have to agonize about these two, for sure. LOL! No one is being 'hit hard,' by two young, accomplished athletes deciding what's best for their lives. They would have had a bright future together in skating because they're very talented, and improving together was an exciting possibility. But as I said in the weird, overwrought 'new ISU ruling' thread, the decision Sonia & Daniel would make, was theirs to make.

I saw a congratulatory story on TeamToddandJenni's IG, with a wonderful picture of Jenni, Sonia, Todd, and Daniel in the kiss 'n cry! Their coaches are so proud of them and their successes together, and happy for the new direction they have chosen to take. Despite knowing I will miss seeing Daniel, and witnessing his talent and his exuberance, I am glad that he's made the right decision for himself. He will definitely be successful in his chosen path. After working at SpaceX this summer, his passion for aerospace engineering was surely solidified. Meanwhile, Sonia has an exciting future in the sport. I wish her well in finding a new partner. For sure, her singles skating is keeping her busy in the meantime.

My biggest takeaway is what great coaches Jenni & Todd are. While this has been testified to by their students many times, I want to re-emphasize. What Sonia & Daniel accomplished winning 2023 Junior Worlds while their coach and mentor, Todd, was touch-and-go in the hospital, was not a small thing. At young ages, they were carrying so many emotions, but they held fast to the discipline, wisdom, and determination they had learned. They did it as a tribute to Todd and to Jenni, as much as they did it for themselves. Developing strong, confident athletes is one thing. Building strength and character in young people which will serve them throughout their lives, is of even greater value.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Imagine being the ISU who basically made the exception almost exclusively for this pair, just for them to split before the season even started Kind of feels like that's the end of exceptional rules for a while.

The ISU did NOT make the last minute interim rule 'exclusively' for Sonia and Daniel, whether you think so or not. Two other teams were impacted, one of which was a promising young Japanese pair. As we know, Japanese fed has way more political and financial clout than U.S. fed, if indeed 'political clout' realities were a factor involved in the ISU deliberations. There had already been rumblings regarding retooling junior age limit requirements. The recent ruling was narrowly enacted as an interim measure. Feds who wished to take advantage of it for eligible skaters had to make an application by July 20, as I mentioned in the previous thread.

The fact that Sonia/ Daniel were the only junior pairs team still together at the time the interim ruling was finally issued, is like, 'So what?!' They clearly were not waiting around to find out with bated breath what the ISU would decide. They had other personal life considerations that were of greater importance in their own reflections. So, the option finally was there. For them, it probably landed like an afterthought. Why go back to juniors anyway after they'd won already? The following season (2024 - 2025) would still have been up-in-the-air for them re international competition. I applaud Sonia & Daniel for doing things their way, with their individual needs in mind, and in their own time!

The ISU simply look like, as usual, the haphazard, ineffectual, over-politicized bunglers they've always been. This has never been about the career of one team. It's been about the stupidity and ham-handed backtracking, and hemming and hawing of clueless ISU ditherers. What else is new?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I would not be surprised if a number of members will think twice when making rule exceptions next time (if there is a next time).

The next fakakta bungling by suddenly addressing a pressing issue as a backhanded response to a scandal, and then making 'oops' adjustments, is just around the corner for clueless ISU handlers.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

And it certainly was in the interest of a powerful and influential federation to find a way to let their best Junior pair compete.

Sorry to break it to you. U.S. fed are a Mom-Pop organization who hew to the status quo, and who tend to go along to get along. There are not many, if any, effective, strategic thinkers within U.S. fed, forget about within the ISU. While USfigsk in general has some modicum of influence within the sport, they have never been good at politicking on behalf of their skaters. If USfigsk has any 'power,' they most certainly do not know how to put such an asset to consistently effective and beneficial use.

Just because the affected Japanese pair apparently split (as you said) before the interim proposal was announced, does not mean that Japanese team was not a factor in the proposal being crafted, prior to their split.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

The ISU did NOT make the last minute interim rule 'exclusively' for Sonia and Daniel, whether you think so or not. Two other teams were impacted, one of which was a promising young Japanese pair. As we know, Japanese fed has way more political and financial clout than U.S. fed, if indeed 'political clout' realities were a factor involved in the ISU deliberations. There had already been rumblings regarding retooling junior age limit requirements. The recent ruling was narrowly enacted as an interim measure. Feds who wished to take advantage of it for eligible skaters had to make an application by July 20, as I mentioned in the previous thread.

The fact that Sonia/ Daniel were the only junior pairs team still together at the time the interim ruling was finally issued, is like, 'So what?!' They clearly were not waiting around to find out with bated breath what the ISU would decide. They had other personal life considerations that were of greater importance in their own reflections. So, the option finally was there. For them, it probably landed like an afterthought. Why go back to juniors anyway after they'd won already? The following season (2024 - 2025) would still have been up-in-the-air for them re international competition. I applaud Sonia & Daniel for doing things their way, with their individual needs in mind, and in their own time!

The ISU simply look like, as usual, the haphazard, ineffectual, over-politicized bunglers they've always been. This has never been about the career of one team. It's been about the stupidity and ham-handed backtracking, and hemming and hawing of clueless ISU ditherers. What else is new?

Ah yes, the Japanese fed is so interested in Junior pairs that they aren't planning on sending out their one junior-eligible pair to the JGP... Almost as interested as they are in their (junior) ice dancers where they won't send out one of the two teams remaining from junior nationals either.

And no, the rule exception was not an "interim measure" or "suddenly addressing a pressing issue as a backhanded response to a scandal" because all of the pairs that would now be eligible this season under the exception would not be age-eligible under the old age rules either. The actual addressing of the issue will happen in 2024 - When the first teams will actually be affected.

 

[moonvine]

Wow. I can't say I'm shocked because it was going to be difficult with waiting out the age rules. But it's still sad nonetheless.

But the rule exception made them not have to wait out of age rule. At least that's my understanding.

 

[purplecat]

I expected this but am really sad about it. I thought they had loads of potential.

Good luck to Daniel with his space career - quite impressive! And good luck to Sonia - hope she finds a good partner!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Ah yes, the Japanese fed is so interested in Junior pairs that they aren't planning on sending out their one junior-eligible pair to the JGP... Almost as interested as they are in their (junior) ice dancers where they won't send out one of the two teams remaining from junior nationals either.

And no, the rule exception was not an "interim measure" or "suddenly addressing a pressing issue as a backhanded response to a scandal" because all of the pairs that would now be eligible would not be age-eligible under the old age rules either. The actual addressing of the issue will happen in 2024 - When the first teams will be actually affected.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with 'beside-the-point' meandering. Certainly, the Japanese fed is interested in building their pairs and ice dance disciplines. They may have a long term strategy that we do not know about. If they aren't sending junior teams out, it might be because the fed does not feel those teams are ready for sending out. Since I am not following Japanese pairs or ice dance closely, I do not have an informed opinion regarding Japan's junior pairs assignments, or the lack thereof.

In any case, you bringing up Japanese fed's handling of their junior pairs teams has nothing to do with what I said in my previous posts in response to your claim that US fed is a "powerful, influential federation," who had an interest in somehow pushing for 'exclusive' consideration for Sonia & Daniel. The recent narrow ruling was not made in accommodation to any 'power or influence' on the part of U.S. fed. In fact, the U.S. didn't need to intervene, because age limits for juniors were already under review.

What a lot of people are ignoring is the fact that Sonia/Daniel not only repped the U.S. in junior pairs, they also became high profile athletes representing the ISU, as junior World champs. Still, the ISU would be remiss in, and would have little reason to 'exclusively' support one team. Due to it looking bad for junior World champs to be denied international competition, the ISU may have felt enacting an exception, might give the institution some cover against being blamed for young teams deciding to break up.

Regarding your focus on semantics, call it an 'exception,' or 'fix,' if you prefer. The recent narrow ruling was instituted in the interim between now and the overriding decision that will be made in 2024. I already indicated that in a previous post. So your mentioning next year's anticipated decision, reiterates what I said.

 

[labgoat]

Hit hard in what way? The 'age-gap pearl-clutchers' no longer have to agonize about these two, for sure. LOL! No one is being 'hit hard,' by two young, accomplished athletes deciding what's best for their lives. They would have had a bright future together in skating because they're very talented, and improving together was an exciting possibility. But as I said in the weird, overwrought 'new ISU ruling' thread, the decision Sonia & Daniel would make, was theirs to make.

I saw a congratulatory story on TeamToddandJenni's IG, with a wonderful picture of Jenni, Sonia, Todd, and Daniel in the kiss 'n cry! Their coaches are so proud of them and their successes together, and happy for the new direction they have chosen to take. Despite knowing I will miss seeing Daniel, and witnessing his talent and his exuberance, I am glad that he's made the right decision for himself. He will definitely be successful in his chosen path. After working at SpaceX this summer, his passion for aerospace engineering was surely solidified. Meanwhile, Sonia has an exciting future in the sport. I wish her well in finding a new partner. For sure, her singles skating is keeping her busy in the meantime.

My biggest takeaway is what great coaches Jenni & Todd are. While this has been testified to by their students many times, I want to re-emphasize. What Sonia & Daniel accomplished winning 2023 Junior Worlds while their coach and mentor, Todd, was touch-and-go in the hospital, was not a small thing. At young ages, they were carrying so many emotions, but they held fast to the discipline, wisdom, and determination they had learned. They did it as a tribute to Todd and to Jenni, as much as they did it for themselves. Developing strong, confident athletes is one thing. Building strength and character in young people which will serve them throughout their lives, is of even greater value.

I am with you on this. This couple achieved the highest goal available to them at this time and did it under extreme pressure and with grace. Daniel is obviously a multi-talented guy and I applaud his decision to explore another passion for education and personal goals. I am even more impressed by Sonia's heartfelt support for his decision. She too is a wonderful talent. I look forward to a future announcement that she has found a new partner. Jenni & Todd are raising not only very good skaters, but also very good people.