Campbell's format announced

[R.D.]

don't worry about it. You're not the first one, trust me.

But think about it. What happens when you get "known" for liking somebody you really don't like? You "turn it up" on the comments, make them a little more "edgy". I don't do this intentionally but I think it just happens.

 

[chuckm]

chuckm,

I read some reports that said Stephane struggled on spins, and others that he was fantastic in the spins. But it was a long tour, and it seemed like everyone was taking turns having their bad night. Even Evgeni had one report talking about him doing doubles--and others, of course, mentioning triple axels.

It was a long tour for most of the skaters, but Lambiel joined the tour very late and did far fewer shows than the others. And he was having problems with jumps and spins in his first shows.

 

[Mathman]

...So, maximizing the allowed jump content, A's jump passes might be (not necessarily in this order):
13.5 quad salchow-triple toe
9.5 quad salchow
10.3 triple axel-double toe-double loop
7.5 triple axel
6.0 triple lutz
5.5 triple flip
5.0 triple loop
6.0 triple salchow-double loop

Total: 43.3 jump base mark
..................
..................

...[yet] it would be possible to make up the difference in jump difficulty just by doing all the jumps better, AND doing harder spins and steps, AND doing them better.

So true...and yet...in spite of everything, I think Temperboy has a point.

If anyone did those jumps (changing the quad Salchows to quad toes), he would be Plushenko, and it wouldn't matter what anyone else did or how uneventful his program was otherwise.

 

[hockeyfan228]

If anyone did those jumps (changing the quad Salchows to quad toes), he would be Plushenko, and it wouldn't matter what anyone else did or how uneventful his prigram was otherwise.

Many thanks to gkelly for the clear breakdown of the relative programs and analysis.

To address Mathman's point, among the current men, that pretty much means Plushenko only. Of the other men:

1. Those with consistent quads: Joubert, Lambiel, Sandhu, and Klimkin are inconsistent with their 3A's, and don't perform 4/3 combo, 4 solo, 3A/3 combo, 3A solo. The different between a well done quad combo and a messy 3A (without fall):

4T/3T: 13.5 +1 GOE: 14.0
3A, -1 GOE: 6.5
Total 20.5

3F/3T: 9.5 +1 GOE: 10.5
3A, +1 GOE: 8.5
Total: 19

or

3Lz/3T: 10 +1 GOE: 11
3A, +1 GOE: 8.5
Total: 19.5

Li and Sandhu are as likely to perform a 4T/2T as a 4T/3T, which would mean:

4T/2T: +1 GOE: 10.8
3A, 0 GOE: 7.5
Total 18.3

The difference between a second 4T and a second 3A is 1.5 points.

2. Those who've been without quads or consistent quads: Buttle, who has a dodgy 3A, and I can't remember when he performed two flawless 3A's (one in combo) in one LP. (Please tell me if he has; I'd love to see it.) His consistency with the Lutz has been questionable. Weir doesn't use all of his jump passes, but he's had problems on the solo 3F in a number of LP's. It's hard to say whether he could sustain the overall quality of his jumps if he did the maximum, because we haven't seen him jump late very often. Oda had late-program issues, probably stemming from a combination of nerves and the transition from junior to senior length programs, and Takahashi can be all over the map. Lysacek has issues with Axels.

If I've seen Preaubert in person, I don't remember, and if he had great skating skills, I would have noticed. On the small downloads, he seems solid and a bit stolid to me, and the quality of his jumps is mixed.

That the quad doesn't get more points, lifting the value of a quad in combo much higher than a 3F/3T, 3Lu/3T, even when the combo is a 4T/2T vs. a 3A/3T, is a much-argued point.

 

[gkelly]

If anyone did those jumps (changing the quad Salchows to quad toes), he would be Plushenko,

Not necessarily. Could be Tim Goebel or Chiangjiang Li on a good day, changing one of the quads to quad toe, or Brian Joubert changing both of them. They have all planned programs with seven triples and two quads, and so has Lambiel.

Joubert came pretty close to pulling it off at 06 Worlds, except that his repeated triple was the flip rather than the axel and he didn't maximize the doubles at the ends of combinations. Maybe if he had he would have won. But he still had the best jump content and didn't win.

Remember 2000 US Nationals under the old system when Goebel landed 3 quads (IIRC) and lost to a guy who landed none?

Yes, Plyushenko is unusual in that he can pretty consistently pull off that kind of content and these other guys need all the stars to align to land everything they plan. But since we're talking hypothetically...

 

[Mathman]

Remember 2000 US Nationals under the old system when Goebel landed 3 quads (IIRC) and lost to a guy who landed none?

A walk down memory lane! One judge had to give Michale Weiss a 6.0 in the second mark to keep him ahead of the presentation-challenged Quad King.

I just looked up the results of that show. Trivia question: Guess who was third? Trifun Zivanovic. Ahead of such notables as Ryan Jahnke, Matt Savoie, Ryan Bradley, Derrick Delmore and John Baldwin (13th in singles).

The difference between a second 4T and a second 3A is 1.5 points.

Definitely a point to keep in mind. On the question of whether the point value of a quad ought to be increased, a triple Axel is no slouch, either.

What would really give someone an advantage, though, would be to have two different quads. Then he could repeat another triple (change the 2Lo to a 3T on his Sal combination, say.)

 

[Dee4707]

don't worry about it. You're not the first one, trust me.

But think about it. What happens when you get "known" for liking somebody you really don't like? You "turn it up" on the comments, make them a little more "edgy". I don't do this intentionally but I think it just happens.

I guess this is what I don't understand, so what if you do or don't like Sasha??? I am not a fan (or what I think constitutes being a fan) but I love to watch her skate and I say that. I usually defend Sasha because people have made really, really mean comments about her but on the other hand don't praise what she does do right. I usually defend when people are just downright mean about her just for meaness sake. The only skater I really have been a fan of is Alexei. Yet, no one accuses me of liking him, but then I do, so what!! I guess what I don't understand is why you get so bent out of shape when anyone says you like Sasha???

Dee

 

[SeaniBu]

I agree DEE:agree: , sometimes I think people can be a little too demeaning, but on the same note some people get too sensitive. Personally as long as we are not "attacking" each other, what is the harm. Celebrity status has always accompanied the possibility of being liked as much as disliked.

I think it is a Love/Hate issue for some. Sasha is a great example of that for me. Over all I love to watch her skate, but during most past interviews I wish I had never seen her talk (getting better lately for me liking her though). Like Shania Twain, I thought she was just so incredibly beautiful and has one of the best voices IMO, but then I saw an interview on David Letterman...and All I can say is I still think good things of her talent and Beauty, but it definitely went down a notch or two.

I think the balance thing is nice to try to do as a rule of thumb too, but just as much as someone praises there is also the same right to be critical.

Most important I feel is not going over the top with the negative comments. FE, Irina looking like she has put on some weight is acceptable to me, but using derogatory terms like chunky or fat is just unnecessary and also discredits the poster that uses such immature vocabulary to convey a message, There is a degree of decorum that is more necessary when criticizing then when complementing, that just shows that actual thought went into the comment.

 

[Mathman]

There is a degree of decorum that is more necessary when criticizing then when complementing, that just shows that actual thought went into the comment.

That is the whole thing in a nutshell. We should add that sentence to the GS guidelines.

 

[R.D.]

I guess this is what I don't understand, so what if you do or don't like Sasha??? I am not a fan (or what I think constitutes being a fan) but I love to watch her skate and I say that. I usually defend Sasha because people have made really, really mean comments about her but on the other hand don't praise what she does do right. I usually defend when people are just downright mean about her just for meaness sake. The only skater I really have been a fan of is Alexei. Yet, no one accuses me of liking him, but then I do, so what!! I guess what I don't understand is why you get so bent out of shape when anyone says you like Sasha???

I wish I could think about it that way. However, "Sasha fan" was a favorite derogatory term for certain posters some time ago. It was a label thrown about to many non-MK fans back in the day. I think it's stuck for some reason, so that every time I hear someone refer to me in that way that's what I think about.

I don't ever remember saying "mean" things about a skater since I joined this forum in 2002. Yet over the years I've been accused of just about everything you can think of. However, I think once more and more people bought into the myth that I liked Sasha there was an inner need to "disprove" that myth and just start saying how I REALLY feel about her. And in fact Yes I have defended Cohen before. SO WHAT. Why is that different from defending Kwan, etc.?

I guess what I simply FAIL to understand is why an increasing amount of posters thought I was a fan of hers when I basically said the same thing about other skaters? I never hear people calling me fans of other skaters with similar comments I make about them.

I suppose I really shouldn't care any more, since I'm not sure "Sasha fan" is being used as a derogatory term anymore. At least I'd LIKE to hope that time has passed.

 

[Mathman]

And Lysacek, Weir and Joubert are so perfect. hmmm. Yet Lambiel has two world championships under his belt with his present game.

That's the point of the discussion, Joe. Even with the occasional miscue, Lambiel is still beating all of his rivals. If he skated cleanly every time, he would be 15 points ahead of everyone else out of the block.

Just observation. It has nothing to do with wishes.

 

[R.D.]

back on topic, I don't think this is anything to get real excited about. How about some real competitions...like the GP series, etc.?

 

[psycho]

That's the point of the discussion, Joe. Even with the occasional miscue, Lambiel is still beating all of his rivals. If he skated cleanly every time, he would be 15 points ahead of everyone else out of the block.

Just observation. It has nothing to do with wishes.

I disagree that if everyone skated clean Lambiel would win. Not because I don't like Lambiel or think that he's inferior, but simply because NO ONE except Plushy skates clean now-a-days. Joubert has sloppy landings and so does Lambiel. Lysacek seems incapable of skating a clean short. Weir can't seem to put enough elements in his FS, Jeff Buttle averages at least 2 falls per program. Eman...is Eman. The point is it is impossible to predict who will lead and how when no one managed to skate clean in a long, long time.

 

[Mathman]

back on topic, I don't think this is anything to get real excited about. How about some real competitions...like the GP series, etc.?

OK, I'm going to hold you to that. When the Grand Prix series begins, you will start posting about how excited you are about it, right?

 

[R.D.]

ah...you think you got me, don't cha...but I never said those "real competitions" were exciting to begin with... But compared to something like Campbell's, the GP series is actually something we - er- you guys can "predict" and "analyze".

 

[antmanb]

1. Those with consistent quads: Joubert, Lambiel, Sandhu, and Klimkin are inconsistent with their 3A's, and don't perform 4/3 combo, 4 solo, 3A/3 combo, 3A solo. The different between a well done quad combo and a messy 3A (without fall):
.

I'm kind of confused as to when Joubert suddenly got a consistent quad - he didn't land the jump in competition for over a year (more like a year and a half) and then he landed one good one at worlds and a couple of shakey/flawed ones and he now has a consistent quad? I think Lambiel is probably the only other skater besides Pluschenko with a properly consistent quad and the rest in your list can land them (and land them very beaituflly) but they are hit and miss in competition.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If we want to get Lambiel, we could talk about his 3A. Other than that, he seems just fine with consistency.

On topic: Pity, we wont see either Joubert of Lambiel at Campbells but do you think the entrants will go for the Quad at Campbells?

Joe

 

[Zazanuka]

If he skated cleanly every time, he would be 15 points ahead of everyone else out of the block.

Why? Weir's SS, spins and jumps are better than Lambiel's.

 

[MKFSfan]

I disagree that if everyone skated clean Lambiel would win. Not because I don't like Lambiel or think that he's inferior, but simply because NO ONE except Plushy skates clean now-a-days. Joubert has sloppy landings and so does Lambiel. Lysacek seems incapable of skating a clean short. Weir can't seem to put enough elements in his FS, Jeff Buttle averages at least 2 falls per program. Eman...is Eman. The point is it is impossible to predict who will lead and how when no one managed to skate clean in a long, long time.

Slightly O/T, but could someone please refresh me: at 2006 Worlds, Jobert skated arguably the best LP of his life, right? What did he land then? Did he get dinged on spins and that's where Lambiel with a 3axle and 2 quads, but a couple shaky jumps skated away with the title? IIRC, the two were separated by less than 1 point.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Why? Weir's SS, spins and jumps are better than Lambiel's.

Weir's spins better then Lambiel's? That is so nuts it is hilarious. As for jumps because Lambiel has a solid quad, and tries 3 total with 1 in the short and 2 in the long, and Weir does not even come close to that at this point, that automaticaly makes him the better jumper for now, unless Weir was much more consistent with his triples which he was not last year.