His two mistakes at Euro 2013 SP put him in sixth with just 74 points. That would have put him out of the top 10 at Worlds.
I think bestskate8 refers to when Plushenko was in his prime.
His two mistakes at Euro 2013 SP put him in sixth with just 74 points. That would have put him out of the top 10 at Worlds.
Going by that, you would have to agree then that Jeffrey Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi, and Takahiko Kozuka are currently all better than Plushenko according to their most recent head-to-head results of Japan Open 2012.
Had Chan skated his 2011 Worlds SP/LP at those Olympics, he would have easily beaten Plushenko. Just like if he skated his 2013 Worlds SP/LP he would might have been placed behind Plushenko (even though his score was 13 points higher than Plushenko's 2010 total). Taking their last head to head is an inaccurate way of comparison because some skaters haven't competed head to head in ages (especially when Plushenko hasn't been on the Grand Prix circuit for 3 years, and his competitors now are much more seasoned than back then).
I think bestskate8 refers to when Plushenko was in his prime.
So Jeffrey Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi, and Takahiko Kozuka are better than Plushenko based on JO, and the first 5 men whose scores are better than Plushenko in EC2013 SP are also better than Plushenko!!!!
And Plushenko is better than Chan at JO 2012, so Chan is worse than all these men above......
Exactly, I'm pointing out that it's often inaccurate to use somebody's most recent head-to-head as an assessment of who's better than who.
So it is perfectly OK to use Plushenko's 2010's program as a perfect example for his "non-existing" TR; "crap" Ch, etc.
And bring Chan's rare but nice performance to compare to Plushenko's are but disastrous SP this year is also perfectly OK.
Okay, so until the next time they compete against each other we can assume that Jeffrey Buttle is better than Plushenko, based on their most recent head to head at Japan Open 2012.
I think bestskate8 refers to when Plushenko was in his prime.
Yes it is, because I'm saying at the time, his TR/CH/SS were subpar, and have been like that most of his career in terms of what he had put out in his performances up until that point. Clearly he's capable of better TR/CH/SS as evidenced by his Euro and Russian Nats skates, which I've acknowledged. I think even his fans would agree that he's got much better programs now than earlier in his career.
By "better than" on this thread we mean, "who is destined to skate better at the Sochi Olympics," right? Hmm.
I totally agree his recent programs are much better than Tango Amore, personally I like them better than also the godfather (2006 version). But his earlier programs were still brilliant than most of the programs you are praising now (not Plushenko's ones but other "top" skaters') if only from the performing art point of view.
You are totally correct! But a big problem is a belief From csg that all his 6.0 programs were worthless and all his second mark was just a jump bonus.
I never said his 6.0 programs were worthless... I said that pre-IJS his expression and interpretation were decent (though not as good as Yagudin's) but his choreography has never been complex or difficult (save for a few footwork sequences), before Euros 2012. Once IJS came along his artistry and choreography actually deteriorated because he become so focused on his jumps. He's far more into the character and interpretation of his 2002 Carmen LP than his 2006 LP.
The programs didn't really suffer though from a performance standpoint because he maintained his jumping consistency and it's hard to give somebody less PCS or artistic marks when they put out a clean skate. I'm curious as to how his fans view his Euros LP to his 2010 and 2006 Olympic LP, from a technical skating perspective. There's no question that his 2012 programs are far better choreographically and artistically than his programs in 2006/2010... so what would they have gotten back then - 6.2?
I never said his 6.0 programs were worthless... I said that pre-IJS his expression and interpretation were decent (though not as good as Yagudin's) but his choreography has never been complex or difficult (save for a few footwork sequences), before Euros 2012. Once IJS came along his artistry and choreography actually deteriorated because he become so focused on his jumps. He's far more into the character and interpretation of his 2002 Carmen LP than his 2006 LP.
The programs didn't really suffer though from a performance standpoint because he maintained his jumping consistency and it's hard to give somebody less PCS or artistic marks when they put out a clean skate. I'm curious as to how his fans view his Euros LP to his 2010 and 2006 Olympic LP, from a technical skating perspective. There's no question that his 2012 programs are far better choreographically and artistically than his programs in 2006/2010... so what would they have gotten back then - 6.2?
I like his 2006 EC performance although it was not perfect due to the fact he was sick and was exhausted after the skate. What I saw from that performance is a fighter who fought against his weak body and finish his skate cleanly. As for his 2010's EC's performance, I said before I am not a big fan of Tango amore (though I watched it live once in show, very exciting if only because it was skated by Plushenko), so no comments on that.
And I like his post Carmen programs a lot, Adagio, Tango and flamenco, St. Petersburg 300, Nijinsky, Moonlight, and Godfather in 2004-5 season. They are art on ice.
It is never fair to mark the old programs since the rules change all the time. But since you are so eager to diminish Plushenko's achievements by defining him only as a jumper, I guess that is why you are so eager to mark his old programs down to show that he is just an average skater comparing to other "top" skaters.
The speculations sound a like a moo point to me, after the surgery and his lack of training time now. I think Plush with his Rn and Euros 2012 performances started a nice built up for Sochi that was disturbed this year, so now I believe that if he skates at Sochi at all it will be a major comeback story on its own.
I'm bored. In an another thread we already talked this matter. If you compare their presentation marks, Plushenko is clearly the winner. Plushy was the youngest male skater ever, who received 6.0. He received cca 70 60s before the IJS was introduced. He beat Yagudin with second marks, not technical points. The explanation is so simply, Yagudin lived in North-Am for 7 years, he competed in SA and SC many times, he won his olympic gold medal in US, when he retired he competed on professional competitions many times there. And he retired so early, in americans minds he is the legend who beat Plush. Not to mention Plushy skates in Russian style, and Yagudin not.I never said his 6.0 programs were worthless... I said that pre-IJS his expression and interpretation were decent (though not as good as Yagudin's) but his choreography has never been complex or difficult (save for a few footwork sequences), before Euros 2012. Once IJS came along his artistry and choreography actually deteriorated because he become so focused on his jumps. He's far more into the character and interpretation of his 2002 Carmen LP than his 2006 LP.
CSG sucks with his trollish comparison of Plu 2003 and the field of 2013, with different rules, etc. I too want to troll!I'm bored.