Caroline and Mirai and the 3/3s
- Thread starter gio
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I think 3/3's are overrated and I don't think that Caroline or Mirai will need them nor do I think that either has the technique to be consistent with them.
You don't get any more points for doing the jumps in combination than you do performing them singly or in a sequence like Sasha Cohen likes to do in her long programs. As long as you maximize your jumping passes you can still compete.
Caroline and Mirai are different than Miki and Mao. They are strong in certain aspects of skating in which Miki and Mao are weak and conversely I see Caroline and Mirai as being weaker with the 3/3 combinations (which they don't need) than Miki and Mao.
Looking closely at Caroline Zhang, it's clear that she does not get the spring or speed necessary to complete 3/3's. Yet, she compensates with spins that are far better centered than anything Miki or Mao has ever put out on the ice and spins that have much more beautiful positions than Miki or Mao has ever achieved.
Furthermore, Miki and Mao are not capable of a spiral position such as we see from Caroline and Mirai. Both Caroline and Mirai have very pure and technically perfect spiral positions and Miki and Mao probably never will.
Looking closely at Mirai Nagasu's jump technique...her jumps tend to go UP with a lot of spring, but she does not have the snap and rocket rotations necessary to complete 3/3's the way that Miki and Mao do. That's fine. I would rather see beautiful, high technically perfect jumps such as Mirai's than snapped, whipped around jumps with very little spring.
As long as Caroline and Mirai maximize their jumping passes they can compete with the jumpers because they are strong in areas that the jumpers are weak in.
You don't get any more points for doing the jumps in combination than you do performing them singly or in a sequence like Sasha Cohen likes to do in her long programs. As long as you maximize your jumping passes you can still compete.
Caroline and Mirai are different than Miki and Mao. They are strong in certain aspects of skating in which Miki and Mao are weak and conversely I see Caroline and Mirai as being weaker with the 3/3 combinations (which they don't need) than Miki and Mao.
Looking closely at Caroline Zhang, it's clear that she does not get the spring or speed necessary to complete 3/3's. Yet, she compensates with spins that are far better centered than anything Miki or Mao has ever put out on the ice and spins that have much more beautiful positions than Miki or Mao has ever achieved.
Furthermore, Miki and Mao are not capable of a spiral position such as we see from Caroline and Mirai. Both Caroline and Mirai have very pure and technically perfect spiral positions and Miki and Mao probably never will.
Looking closely at Mirai Nagasu's jump technique...her jumps tend to go UP with a lot of spring, but she does not have the snap and rocket rotations necessary to complete 3/3's the way that Miki and Mao do. That's fine. I would rather see beautiful, high technically perfect jumps such as Mirai's than snapped, whipped around jumps with very little spring.
As long as Caroline and Mirai maximize their jumping passes they can compete with the jumpers because they are strong in areas that the jumpers are weak in.
Mao, Miki, Yu Na and Kimmie have one or two triple/triple. Mao has the triple axel. Miki could do the quad. And Kimmie the triple axel as well. This means a lot of points. All this skaters will become much much better at PCS. So, I think that you need one or even two 3/3s if you want to be competitive.
It's difficult to say that Mao and Yu Na are weak in other aspects of skating. The over 70 points Yu Na received in her SP explains all!!
I never said Yu Na...I was referring to Miki and Mao. Yu Na is so good because (like Caroline and Mirai) she maximizes points on her non-jump elements.
As long as the skaters are maximizing their jump passes, then the playing field is even and the non-jump elements will determine the winner(s).
They have to maximize the jumping passes, I agree!! But for now, Caroline isn't. She has just three kind of triple jumps.
Wait wait. Mao is young, as well as Kimmie. I'm sure that they will become better in interpretation. Katarina Witt was the same as Mao and Kimmie when young. Same with Lu Chen. And look at the artists they became.
A tree grows from a seed. If I saw a seed of expression in Mao's skating then I might think otherwise, but we have watched her skate for...four seasons...with that same blank expression on her face.
Maybe she'll wake up one day (from her skate trance) and realize that there is an audience, but chances are that if that light has not illuminated for her as of yet, it may not happen at all.
Maybe she'll wake up one day (from her skate trance) and realize that there is an audience, but chances are that if that light has not illuminated for her as of yet, it may not happen at all.
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- Nov 16, 2005
I guess that is how Sasha managed to stay on the podium at so many competitions. She was heads over heels better at the non jump elements than mostly everyone. But I still I think Zhang & Mirai are going to need some type of jump combination to stand out technically. Maybe a triple jump sequence.
What about Wagner, does she have a triple triple planned? Is she an artist like Caroline & Mirai?
What about Wagner, does she have a triple triple planned? Is she an artist like Caroline & Mirai?
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
I don't really agree with this at all. If there were an equal number of jumping passes as there are spins and footwork and if the points to be made from those non-jumping elements were equal then i woudl agree. This is not the case - a ladies LP contains 7 jumping passes three of which may be combinations, one of which can be a three jump combination which means that a lady who maximises her jumping passes may complete a total of 11 jumps compared to three spins and two step sequences.
Furthermore the points that can be obtained from one spin or step sequence, even if it level 4 and even if its +3 GOE is still only just about equal to the easiest triple jump.
Without 3/3s the most a lady can do (nless she lands a 2A in combination with a triple jump) is 6 triples compared to the seven a lady without full set of triples coudl land or 8 for a lady who can land all 6 different triples.
Ant
During the Olympic Season, Sasha's jump lay-out was: 3-lutz/2-toe/2-loop, 3-flip/2-toe, 3-loop, 3-salchow/3-toe sequence, 3-flip, 2-axel and 3-salchow for a total of 7 triples with no 3/3. She had this same layout when she won the silver in Moscow.
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- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Just because, in your opinion, there is no expression in her skating it does not make it a fact. Many others, myself included see good expression in Mao's skating given both her age and the level of technical content she is including. It is her first year at the senior championship level and i expect her to continue to grow both in her consistency and in he artistry. Comparing her negatively to skaters who have not even competed on the Sneior GP circuit (and one of those hasn't even competed on the JGP) is premature (and a little foolhardy).
Ant
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- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Re-reaed your post - there is a 3/3 ...a triple/triple sequence - this opens up the opportunity to do a seventh triple jump.
Ant
O.K. To each his own. We have different opinions.
To me, Mao's face resembles a porcelain (expressionless) mask as she skates, but maybe that's good expression in some books.
BTW, I don't think Mao is so young (or so young that she has not had time to develop expression and emotion in her skating). After all, Michelle Kwan at the age of 12 had far, far more expression in her face, back, fingertips, in every part of her body than Mao does now. Caroline and Mirai are only 13.
I think that Mao's coaches probably never stressed "the intangibles" of performing to her as much as they stressed jump technique. Mao could take a lesson from her sister Mai, who does show excellent expression and musical connection in her skating. Maybe it will come in time to Mao or maybe she would rather practice quads than bother with "the intangibles."
Yes...that was my point. A jump sequence rather than a 3/3 combination will work just fine when it comes to maximizing jump passes in a long program.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Expression, to me, in skating does not mean facial expression - it means expression of the music through your body - one part of which may be your facial expression, but remember to a live audience watching skating - you cannot make out facial expressions like you can on TV. For me personally facial expressions are by the by, its expression of the music using your blades and your body that count to me.
I think you are misremembering Michelle at age 12, here's a youtube link to her skating age 12:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9fCgUR8L_U
I don't think anyone can seriously say that michelle has more expression in that performance than Mao had at this years world championships:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRZVFMZPlME
I dont' think you could even say that MIchelle's 1995 worlds performance three years later at the age of 15 was better than Mao's this year. Kwan's breakthrough in presentation was the 1995/96 seasons with Romanza as her SP and Salome as her LP.
Ant
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Points-wise, the problem that non-Mao Asadas have is not triple-triples, but the triple Axel.
Sasha's jump layout has a base value of 42.5 points. She gets dinged a little because of the .8 factor on her sequence and also because she did two Salchows instead of two Lutzes.
In comparison, Miki's jump layout at Worlds was 3Lz+3Lo, 3S, 3F, 3Lz, 3T+2Lo+2Lo, 3F+2Lo, 2A for a total of 44.3 points, not counting second half bonuses.
A Sasha-esque performance could easily make up the two-odd points.
But Mao did 3A, 2A+3T, 3F+3Lo, 2A, 3Lz, 3F, 3Lz+2Lo+2Lo = 49.1 points base value before second half bonuses and GOEs. That's a big head start. Plus, without a triple-triple in the short program a skater will already be behind going into the long program.
I think the bottom line is, Caroline and Mirai are only thirteen. I bet they are already practicing a variety of triple-triples and will shortly -- probably next year -- have them performance-ready.
By your line of reasoning, it might be better for Caroline and Mirai to work on the 3-axel. Of the two, I think Mirai could get it because she has so much spring in her 2-axel.
It's odd that we are discussing how these ladies can maximize jumping points when Caroline Zhang just blew away point records at the junior level and she did it by maximizing the levels of her non-jump elements.
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- Mar 19, 2006
What would a 3/3/3 do to a programme?
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