Caroline's jumps-slow mo <3

[bekalc]

Of course I don't see Caroline outskating Yuna or Mao at this point. That's why I mentioned "someday". However, the point difference between triple toe and double toe is less than 3 points, which Caroline might be accumulate with her spins and spiral. Of course, that is going to happen only if Caroline is up to par in other aspects like footwork. BTW, the reason I didn't mention Mao in my last post is because her 3-3 is not as consistent and may be vulnerable to downgrade. Anyway, I love Yuna's skating (what's not to like?), and I get strong Yuna vive from Caroline (especially in her expression and her programs this year).

Maybe, so but when the judges think PCS, and over all program, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't take into account something like (this skater did a 3/3 and this skater didn't do one)

Also, a skater who can do a 3/3 can get an extra jump I believe (in the long program as well) so that can add up to an extra 6 points..

As for spins and spirals, sure Caroline's better at those, but Yu-na has level four spirals and spins herself, and GOE wise, Caroline's not going to get 3 extra points to off set the difference.

 

[tae04]

this is just her first senior yr, her jumps will get more height over time. so im not too concerned about her. i dont think she is notoriously cheating jumps.

 

[Lumi]

Poor Caroline. No height is going to help her if she dosen't stop prerotating her edge jumps. Her cheat in those is pretty clear when you watch the replay... Poor girl, changing her technique will be painful and extremely difficult, if not impossible.

Shame, she is a beautiful skater.

 

[Mathman]

I'm curious as to how many of her jumps were underrotated at junior worlds...I also am a little confused. Will cheating a jump cause a < from the judges?

Neither Caroline nor any of the other top four finishers at Junior Worlds had any jumps downgraded in either the long or short programs.

I assume that Caroline didn't suddenly get worse this year, so I can think of three possible explanations. First, that was juniors, this is seniors. Second, maybe the ISU has decided to get tough with underrotations this year. We'll see what happens at Skate Canada (my prediction -- the tech specialists will continue to be tough until Worlds, then they'll lighten up so the audience won't think that the world champion skaters are duds. Also, tech specialists will be more generous at national championships than in international contests.)

The third possibilty is that this particular tech specialist is more hard-nosed than most.

Cheating on the rotations is supposed to get a < from the technical specialist and his crew. In the past, I believe that pre-rotation was not called as often as coming up short on the landing. Even if the tech specialist does not call a <, if the judges see underrotation they are supposed to give a -2 GOE (but as far as I can tell they usually don't, if an underrotation is not officially called by the caller).

 

[dwiggin3]

Exactly. nobody is perfect, so why is it that when sombody is amazingly good, close to perfect that still isn't good enough. First it was "she won't do well without a triple triple." Well she got one. And landed it in both program, more than miss meissner is able to say.

By nature, close to perfect isn't perfect so it will never be good enough. That's just sound logic.

I don't think anyone is trying to take things away from Caroline or her skills. But, when you finally get to this level of skating, you must be aware that you will be subject to serious debates on your skills - regardless of how old you are. This is also true about message boards like this. Often disagreements breakout because a poster who is a casual fan thinks skater A should have won but different poster, who happens to skate or judge, can see the technical shortcomings. I think its important to understand and respect the place each poster comes from and their level of expertise. Granted, I'm wiling to give a bit because Caroline is so young and displays some unusual talent fo her age, but if you're gonna play with the big boys and girls, you have to expect to be treated like one and that means enduring harsh criticism - which is what will push the truly competitive skaters to improve.

This nonsense about not doing well without a 3/3 - I didn't say that,. please don't put words in my mouth - maybe others did. I think the 3/3 is important and when the ladies are on, a skater needs it to win. When they're off, it's anyones game. IIRC, her 3/3 hasn't been ratified yet, so it's not official and if it is made official, it shouldn't be, the combo was cheated.

 

[capcomop]

Exactly. nobody is perfect, so why is it that when sombody is amazingly good, close to perfect that still isn't good enough. First it was "she won't do well without a triple triple." Well she got one. And landed it in both program, more than miss meissner is able to say.

Well the comment that most are responding to states that the judges unfairly picked on her because they couldn't stand it because she was PERFECT.
Most here are commenting that is not exactly true. For example, her lutz isn't perfect because she takes off from the wrong edge. Now everything else about the jump could be as close to perfect as possible and it still would never be perfect because it came off the wrong edge! So is it a nearly perfect lutz? Why yes only it isn't a lutz because it comes off the wrong edge (boy isn't this on old argument so no.
Why isn't close to perfect good enough? Depends on what you are talking about...why isn't close to perfect good enough for CoP to give her full credit for her cheated, underrotated jumps?
Because it is a scoring system with rules that looks at the details of everything!

Why isn't close to perfect good enough for all skating fans to bow at her feet and worship her as a skating goddess? Gosh that answer requires as many variations as there are skating fans.

This thread however was started to look at the slow-motion video of her jumps. When someone takes each jump in a program and slows them down to look at the tiny details in an effort to prove how flawless the jumps were it is almost guarneteed that flaws will be found! That is true of almost everything in life. It is one of my biggest issues with CoP. The system insists on breaking everything into tiny details and forces judegments on those. It mostly ignores the sum of the parts which, IMO misses the point of most art!

 

[feraina]

Poor Caroline. No height is going to help her if she dosen't stop prerotating her edge jumps.

You are SUPPOSED to pre-rotate your edge jumps. That's part of the right technique for both the salchow and the loop according to most coaches.

I'd be very interested to see a slow-mo video of some ladies skaters doing 3S or 3Loop without any pre-rotation!

 

[sillylionlove]

She is 14 years old!! Let's give her a break!!

 

[3lutz3toe]

Change of question here. Isn't Zhang’s coach also Chen Lu’s coach? I seem to remember that Chen Lu’s jumps technique weren’t all that great either. I don't know if some of her jumps have always been like that. But I remember the Olympics where she last won the Bronze. Her Lutz was scary looking and her toe loop jump in a combo was horribably cheated. She was lovely and one of my faves skater though. Butterfly lover was great.
—I like Zhang skating very much, especially her spins and spirals and her artistic present. I just can't imagine skating like that as a 14 years old.
—But her jumps are something else. I’d rather see her clean up her jumps than pretend that there aren't any problems. I have a feeling that it would be very hard to undo certain bad habits that she never thought she had a problem w/. I’m surprised to hear her say that she was “suprised” w/ the downgrades. Her camp must have heard that SA was going to crackdown on cheated jumps.

 

[feraina]

I’m surprised to hear her say that she was “suprised” w/ the downgrades. Her camp must have heard that SA was going to crackdown on cheated jumps.

SA didn't crackdown on cheated jumps. SA cracked down on ladies' jumps only. The amount of downgrades was no more than usual in other disciplines. By the standards of what constitute a downgrade in the ladies' event, many other "cheated" jumps in men's and pair's events were missed. I don't see how they could've known beforehand that this selective downgrading was going to happen.

Lulu had strong jumps in her teens. Prior to her last Olympics, she had been under-trained, out of shape, having problems with coaching changes, and mentally un-motivated for quite some time. Hence, it was such a triumph for her to just "come back" and win another bronze medal.

Here's a video of her (14) in the 1991 junior worlds -- pretty good speed and height in her jumps, a good sense of the music, but not yet refined or elegant, not unlike a young Michelle at 14:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fGS8ijpSh-k
Quite a good 3Z, actually!

Mingzhu Li lists in her coaching biography that she specializes in jump technique:
http://www.eastwesticepalace.com/figure/staff-coaches.html
Caroline was seriously under-rotating her triples and falling on them before 06/07, so she probably has Li to credit for fixing that before JGP. Over the summer, she also learned a 3/3 (okay, not ratified yet, but she's close), so I wouldn't say that Li is particularly bad for her in terms of jumping. Probably she learned her flutzes and other bad habits in her first years doing singles and doubles, before Li taking over, and I expect that they'll be working on this intensively over the next months/years.

 

[Lumi]

You are SUPPOSED to pre-rotate your edge jumps. That's part of the right technique for both the salchow and the loop according to most coaches.

I'd be very interested to see a slow-mo video of some ladies skaters doing 3S or 3Loop without any pre-rotation!

Oops, I ment she pre-rotates her toe jumps. My bad. It was cleraly to bee seen in her flips( and flutz), she had already rotated 3/4 or more at the moment she launtched.

 

[carolinefan177]

Look at the quality of that spiral...very Sasha esque

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/olympics/bal-sp.skating28oct28,0,4607368.story?coll=ba

 

[GoldMedalist]

You are SUPPOSED to pre-rotate your edge jumps. That's part of the right technique for both the salchow and the loop according to most coaches.

The same goes for toe jumps. You're not pre-rotating in the same way, but it's not really "bad" if you take off forward on the toepick (pretty much everyone does that on the toeloop).

 

[Mafke]

Some kind soul has uploaded a slo-mo video of various downgraded jumps from the SA ladies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwLlM5ydIGo

Without examining them obsessively they just about all look cheated. There was one that I thought maybe wasn't but I forget by who.