Chan voices his opinion in quad quarrel

[jaq]

That is why I liked when he talked about pushing his technical game more. That felt like a step forward, something people have wanted to hear from him for years. This latest stream on the other hand deserves all the side-eye it is getting in my opinion.

With Patrick it's like one step forward and two steps back ugh

And he doesn't have a technical coach rn right? Like wth, man

 

[Skater Boy]

Aaagh. I had no self control I told myself I shouldn't get involved in this discussion because it would be pointless. Patrick is entitled to his opinion just like all of us but...



https://youtu.be/USLUuaw0ZDU?t=1m5s What did he do after? a beauuutiful spread eagle, and after that another QUAD! Oh the shame of it! :shame:

Chan has had his hand in making the beast that is the multi-quad program. He was rightly proud of his work when he was landing 2 in his LP...suddenly when other skaters are doing 3 or 4 it's too much?
And he IS training the quad sal to put in in the future so the whole point he is trying to make is undermined.

I do like transitions into and out of jumps though. But Yuzu and Fernandez, whom Patrick mentioned are actually doing this...plus who is saying their programs aren't just as entertaining as other leading programs with less quads...Javi and Yuzu have two of the best sets of programs this season going by judges scores (to which the high-browed will turn up their noses) and also audience reaction, sports commentators and even the very same columnists who decry the rise of the quad.

BY the way, Chan's programs are great too, and his 3 quads have not harmed the programs at all.

Okay I am going to be in trouble and get beaten up. People are entitled to their opinions. Clearly there are uber haters and lovers of certain skaters. And there are a few vocal supporters for lack of words of certain skaters especially and that is calling it what it is. Hanyu is one of the rarities who can blend the jumps and interesting things - we don't need snarkiness. But for the others we are losing skating quality but upping pcs because of he tes and injuries seem to be forthcoming. Every step has n ot always been forward. Some say SLC was much ado about nothing and that with th e 6.0 system back then and artistry the tie breaker the Russians could have won but we seem to destroy the sport - because IJS, more difficult jumps hasn't necessarily improved this sport technically, artistically, marketably or anything. I am not sure Duhamel and Radford and the men's increase in technical difficulty has helped the sport. Injuries is my fear - may be hard to prove but I think this push for harder tech elements may not be everything. Yes, people, we know Hanyu is an exception and there are exceptions (and tthen again who knows Hanyu is young - my mom says be careful when you are young you think you are immortal, imperivous but so far he has been lucky at least in respect to last year's big crash - many people would not have been so lucky and had a permanent or ongoing concussion or other problems but sometimes life, skating has a way of creeping up on you. that being said skating will hopefully find its way it might be just a bit lost now?

 

[melmel]

Maybe I'm blind but I don't see all this "skating has lost itself because of too high difficulties!!!!" people are talking about. All I see (and hear from the skaters in question) around is how skaters (at least in men) are working hard in including both the hard jumps and the skating skills. Boyang Jin looks more like the exception to me than the "new road". I also don't get the "COP is horrible, bring back the 6.0" because the 6.0 were never explained and then the technical side of skating was completely brushed away in favor of "showy" or more crowd pleasing programs and there was drama because it was hard to understanding as a viewer that the more artistic program didn't win because you had no way to understand where the technical scores were coming...

Back on topic, what bothers me with this interview is that just before Nationals we got another interview where Patrick was talking about how upping the technical side of his program was a carefully thought plan and strategy and now he won (and I'm glad he did, it gave him his confidence back, I guess) and he seems to be like "lol, kidding all this jumps are stupid! Imma gonna lay back with my ice wine and enjoy the gladiators show!"

I don't believe it was meant in a diminishing way for Yuzuru and Javier, but there's other way to say "hey, I might not be the national hero again so lay off the pressure, people." or "I prefer to put my body first and be sure it stays healthy as long as possible that's why i'm testing and aknowledging my limits".

People are entitled to their opinion and are free to change their mind and mindset, but considering he is still someone other skaters look at and study to improve their skating skill, it comes off quite arrogant to imply they have nothing to offer him in return.

 

[Dan]

Two words: Compulsory Figures. Return the sport to its roots.

They said that they removed compulsory figures to accommodate the sport being on TV. Figures on TV are boring and impossible to follow. However, the popularity of the sport is so far down anyway what have you got to lose by adding figures back in? I kind of like this idea. What do you think of having a competition which consists of three rounds...a traditional figures round, a jumping round, and then a truly free skate which is similar to today's long but with less restrictions.

 

[Sam L]

They said that they removed compulsory figures to accommodate the sport being on TV. Figures on TV are boring and impossible to follow. However, the popularity of the sport is so far down anyway what have you got to lose by adding figures back in? I kind of like this idea. What do you think of having a competition which consists of three rounds...a traditional figures round, a jumping round, and then a truly free skate which is similar to today's long but with less restrictions.

Hi Dan, there is a thread discussing compulsory figures here: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?57949-Should-Compulsory-Figures-be-brought-back

My post in here wasn't so much a suggestion but a reminder that we don't need to be pushing so much in the air, that the roots of the sport is on the ice. But yours is a nice suggestion. I would love something like that.

 

[karlowens2]

Patrick has focused on the performance side of figure skating for the last few years while doing multiple quads per competition so it's not like he is suddenly defending the artistry of figure skating.

Read carefully to understand he is talking about 4-quad programs. He is saying doing 4 quads will take up half the program, leaving half a program jammed with all other elements and half rather empty but for the quads. Artistry will surely suffer with such choreography. He may include up to 3 quads in his LP but will not be into a 4-quad program himself.

I respect his view and his strategies for himself as well as others' plans for their program contents. Each has to do what's right by them, their bodies, skills, and values. We will see if so many quads will diminish skating artistry and whether they will damage bodies, even the slim narrow type built for fast rotations.

For Patrick, he decides the balance is at 3 quad limit. I certainly wish for him to have that balance and not sacrifice his artistry for an additional quad. I also acknowledge he has the credential to know what he's talking about as far as figure skating is concerned.

I appreciated him saying how the quad affects the rest of the program. 1)the setup needs to be straight-on; can't do foorwork, transitions 2)setup, doing and recovery takes long time 3) 4 quads takes about 2 minutes of program.

It would be nice to hear from other skaters whether this seems accurate. It may explain why quad-heavy programs just seem about jumping. Chan, Fernandez and Ten seem to have a good balance in their programs.

 

[nolangoh]

I appreciated him saying how the quad affects the rest of the program. 1)the setup needs to be straight-on; can't do foorwork, transitions 2)setup, doing and recovery takes long time 3) 4 quads takes about 2 minutes of program.

It would be nice to hear from other skaters whether this seems accurate. It may explain why quad-heavy programs just seem about jumping. Chan, Fernandez and Ten seem to have a good balance in their programs.

Agree. A good program does not need to be fully quad-loaded. It is all about the choreography and interpretation of the skater. If he/she expresses well, even without the quads or 3A, the program will still look good. Of course I am not saying you cannot do it, the quads can still be done, but make sure to give the same amount of focus, attention and effort on the choreography/presentation too. Transitions into or out of the jumps are not really necessary in order to make a great program, just look at the past skaters, they don't have much transition into the jumps but their programs are still great. Or look at the some ladies like Mao Asada or Carolina Kostner, they don't have a lot of transitions around the jumps yet their programs are mesmerizing.

 

[HanDomi]

1)the setup needs to be straight-on; can't do foorwork, transitions

Hanyu showed that setup don't need to be straight on so despite he is the only one to do things like that it is possible and others should learn to do it this way or stop stating it's impossible.

Interesting that you pointing out Ten because he has the longest setup from top guys for quad and he is throwing away program completely when he goes for quads and 3A

 

[Interspectator]

I appreciated him saying how the quad affects the rest of the program. 1)the setup needs to be straight-on; can't do foorwork, transitions 2)setup, doing and recovery takes long time 3) 4 quads takes about 2 minutes of program.

It would be nice to hear from other skaters whether this seems accurate. It may explain why quad-heavy programs just seem about jumping. Chan, Fernandez and Ten seem to have a good balance in their programs.

These are legitimate points, and we have certainly seen programs where the set up to both quad and triple axel seems like it's going to take forever.

I think that Patrick chose the worst possible examples for his points by bringing up the two best skaters this year who actually do their quads and 3As out of transitions and do not let the jumps take over the program.

Another good point brought up in this thread is the physical toll and injuries that jumps cause on the body. They aren't the only culprits for injuries in figure skating but they are definitely the cause of many injuries.

If quads are going to be restricted in some way, the injury/ physical toll angle seems much more solid to me than the angle of 3 quads= worse skating.

Another thing about the looong set up into quads is a matter of progress. When 3A's were the hardest jump all the skaters did that long one-foot glide into them. -Took up a lot of time. Now we see guys doing 3As out of crazy transitions.

It's starting to happen with the quads too. Skaters are starting to put transitions before and after their quads. -I think it will happen more as skaters think of a quad as 'just another jump' like triples were before.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Or look at the some ladies like Mao Asada or Carolina Kostner, they don't have a lot of transitions around the jumps yet their programs are mesmerizing.

Mao and Caro are both so often criticized for their long set-ups for jumps (3A and 3Lz) - how are they any good examples to defend your view? Why is that different than a long set-up for a quad?

And I really can't agree with people bringing up Boyang or Nathan because they aren't good enough in PCS: these guys are 18 and 16. Of course they are going to have some big weaknesses in their skating. It's hardly fair to call them responsible for a "decline in skating quality" when they have barely been on the scene and both know they have work to do outside of the quads. It's not as if your average 16- or 18-year old was so outstanding in all the PCS categories, even when they don't have the big jumps.
And outside of them, which 3-quad LP guys are there Patrick could have meant? Right, Yuzu and Javi.

 

[Mathman]

I appreciated him saying how the quad affects the rest of the program. 1) the setup needs to be straight-on; can't do foorwork, transitions 2)setup, doing and recovery takes long time 3) 4 quads takes about 2 minutes of program.

I think Nathan Chen's LP at U.S. Nationals is a textbook case of the kind of program that Chan is talking about. (Except change 2 minute to 2.5 minutes, putting the fourth quad in the second half. (No knock on young Mr. Chen's astonishing feat, though.)

 

[MaxSwagg]

Nathan is 16. Plus, why are we talking about the younger skaters (i.e., Shoma, Boyang, Nathan) when he specifically mentioned Yuzu and Javi? Obviously he has some issue there.

 

[solani]

Patrick should use his energy to get his 4S consistent. He was the artistic skater who did 3 quads and he changed the game. He was so far ahead of everyone else, he was able to win despite multiple errors because of the judging system. It was fair and square. So he shouldn't wonder that the other skaters upped their tech. Because the only way to beat a clean Patrick Chan is to do more quads than Patrick Chan. Or to do the same number of quads with some crazy transitions and spins.

 

[jkun]

I think Hanyu is a clear example that you can be an aesthetically pleasing skater as well as a technically great one.

 

[louisa05]

Patrick should use his energy to get his 4S consistent. He was the artistic skater who did 3 quads and he changed the game. He was so far ahead of everyone else, he was able to win despite multiple errors because of the judging system. It was fair and square. So he shouldn't wonder that the other skaters upped their tech. Because the only way to beat a clean Patrick Chan is to do more quads than Patrick Chan. Or to do the same number of quads with some crazy transitions and spins.

Patrick is 25. He may be changing his tune on quads due to physical wear and tear.

 

[da96103]

Mao and Caro are both so often criticized for their long set-ups for jumps (3A and 3Lz) - how are they any good examples to defend your view? Why is that different than a long set-up for a quad?

And I really can't agree with people bringing up Boyang or Nathan because they aren't good enough in PCS: these guys are 18 and 16. Of course they are going to have some big weaknesses in their skating. It's hardly fair to call them responsible for a "decline in skating quality" when they have barely been on the scene and both know they have work to do outside of the quads. It's not as if your average 16- or 18-year old was so outstanding in all the PCS categories, even when they don't have the big jumps.
And outside of them, which 3-quad LP guys are there Patrick could have meant? Right, Yuzu and Javi.

In 2016 World Championship, Nathan Chen starts his first senior SP. He takes his opening position, music starts, he skates a bit and then set up his first jump, 4T. Suddenly music stops before he jumps, all the lights are turned off. One solitary spotlight shines on Nathan who looked perplexed. All the spectators start chanting,"YOU ARE THE CAUSE OF THE DECLINE IN SKATING QUALITY! YOU ARE THE CAUSE OF THE DECLINE IN SKATING QUALITY! YOU ARE THE CAUSE OF THE DECLINE IN SKATING QUALITY!"

Nathan: WTH, I have not even done my first ISU Senior event jump.

 

[jkun]

Chan is just butt-hurt that Yuzuru has managed to take his winning formula (good skating, artistry, + technical greatness) and do it better than Chan.

 

[da96103]

I was just thinking, was Patrick's frustration resulting in him making these unsavory comments to the media caused by his failure to add the second 3A in FS.

His jumps at Nationals FS

4T3T - beautiful
3A - hangs on
4T - Nice
StSq - Nice spread eagle variation
2A2T - doubled planned triple
3F2T2T - good
Spin -
2F - hangs on (planned triple)

 

[wookchub]

I'm not gonna comment on Patrick's words tbh tired of that déjà vu now.

Yuzuru openly states that he looks to others in order to improve himself. If someone is doing something that he can't then he studies them and he trains until he can do it, and then until he can do it better than they can. It takes some humility to do that and if there's one thing Patrick is lacking...time to ditch the 'I'm fresh off a year out' excuse and start learning. Keep your enemies closer, Chiddy.

 

[Panpie]

Why haven't I heard that before.



Patrick had the best footwork in the business when he burst onto the scene in 2008 and 2009 (excepting only Kurt Browning as a pro). He was a CoP pioneer in that he was the first skater to really understand what the "Skating Skills" component of the PSC was supposed to be about.

At the time, people said he would be a wonder if he could get a quad. He got a quad -- an excellent one.

Then they said he would be a wonder if he got some performance, musical, and interpretive skills. He tried his best, starting with his Elegy exhibition program, setting aside piling on the tech in favor of working on technical/artistic balance. He is not Stephane Lambiel or even Jeff Buttle, but to his credit he has developed a style of his own.

One day, like Rip Van Winkle, he wakes up to find the world gone by without him. Although I have to admit, in the interval after Skate Canada and before NHK, I didn't think it had.

Yes, he has a preternatural and uncanny gift of being able, time after time, to come up with atrocious things to say and inappropriate ways to say them. Although I still maintain that the press eggs him on in order to sell newspapers. I don't think he means any harm -- and even if he does, who does he hurt?

Wish I could.take credit for the A to B comment, but Dorothy Parker allegedly said it about Katherine Hepburn.

I think things changed for Patrick around the time of the 2013 GPF. Yuzuru was really out of sorts at 2015 Skate Canada. Maybe Patrick didn't take that into account and was surprised by Hanyu's scores and performances at NHK and GPF.

I would say that Patrick hurts himself with his comments. He comes off as petty and
arrogant; someone who is unable to give credit where credit is due; someone who has no respect for his rivals and perhaps even wishes them harm. He looks like a small and bitter man. I can guarantee you that he is winning neither friends nor fans with his comments.

While I tend to agree with you about 98% of the time, I don't think the press is egging Patrick on. He knows what he's saying, and he should be prepared for the inevitable criticism.