Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

[Medusa]

I was wondering if European or Asian commentators make claims about cheating as part of their commentary? Certainly the Eurosport guys can't agree with every medal placement they have ever seen?

See my post above about the short program at this years Europeans.

Also watch German Eurosport while Domnina & Shabalin skate, the German commentators don't like them very much and were especially a bit miffed at the first place of them in the CD at Worlds (they thought that Virtue & Moir should have been in first). They were also completely shocked at the placement of Czisny in the short program at the ladies, they thought that she should have placed much much lower. In general the German commentators don't really say that there is cheating, they are more critical of the judging system, or of "reputation judging".

The British are more laid-back then the Germans (we are German after all, we take stuff seriously!). The most drastic they would say is: "Hmm, I would have judged that differently" or "That surprises me now". But those moments are really rare.

I also remember a newspaper article in one of Germany's most conservative and respected newspapers, that after Worlds openly criticised the victory of Domnina & Shabalin, saying that all three North-American teams were fresher, more creative and more deserving of the medals.

 

[Tonichelle]

All this you got from Scott's book? If so, how did Costas retort?.

No, I watched the interview in 2002. I was in my living room and I was ticked off at Costas's need to do 'damage control' when Scott said he felt the need to apologise for the poor commentary.

Subjective judging is part of any sport. Does that make it correct judging?

yes and no. what one person finds 'artistic' or 'good performance' another might not. is it WRONG? No. Is it right? depends on if I tend to agree with that judge or not.

and by *I* I mean each individual person watching.

you can't be objective when you have that second mark... you can't even been 100% objective with who did what better type contests... everyone has personal preferences.

 

[janetfan]

See my post above about the short program at this years Europeans.

Also watch German Eurosport while Domnina & Shabalin skate, the German commentators don't like them very much and were especially a bit miffed at the first place of them in the CD at Worlds (they thought that Virtue & Moir should have been in first). They were also completely shocked at the placement of Czisny in the short program at the ladies, they thought that she should have placed much much lower. In general the German commentators don't really say that there is cheating, they are more critical of the judging system, or of "reputation judging".

The British are more laid-back then the Germans (we are German after all, we take stuff seriously!). The most drastic they would say is: "Hmm, I would have judged that differently" or "That surprises me now". But those moments are really rare.

I also remember a newspaper article in one of Germany's most conservative and respected newspapers, that after Worlds openly criticised the victory of Domnina & Shabalin, saying that all three North-American teams were fresher, more creative and more deserving of the medals.

Thanks for your thoughts and insights medusa. It is very interesting to me to hear the opinions and views from other countries.
I am also pleased to hear a discussion about commentators and judging without all of the old East vs West feelings as the dominant theme.
It is funny right now because I keep thinking about Michelle at '95 Worlds. She was only 14 but dropped 7 or 8 triples in her LP. The clip I have watched is by the Eurosport commentators and I don't think they agreed with her 4th place finish. I never remember being upset by Michelle being placed 4th - to the contrary I think that was the event that forever gave Michelle a special place in my heart - and the hearts of most American skating fans. But geez, those commentators are so different than what I grew up with in the USA. Perhaps the restraint they showed is better than some of what we have heard in USA over the years.
If anyone hasn't seen (or heard) this it is worth viewing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHsorCH-690

well, if you start spitting watermelon seeds in public.. i think you ll be safer.

How sad for our European friends :sheesh: Don't you realize that almighty American technolgy has given us the unimaginable pleasure of "seedless watermelons?"
How I wish I could be sitting around the table, slobbering over some juicy watermelon and spitting out the seeds like some character from "Zorba The Greek." How I long for the simple pleasures of a Euro peasant - to be spitting out seeds, drinking some ouzo while playing a few choruses of the "Blue Danube Waltz" on my flute. Ah, to the joys and simple pleasures of such a pure life

FYI, Euro women may permit such behavior, but try spitting out seeds in front of an American lady and you will get a lecture - or worse - that won't be forgotten anytime soon.

 

[seniorita]

ah , the blue danube part was the one that ruined the picturesque image of the greek peasant!
Watching these movies can only lead to misconceptions :sheesh:

try spitting seeds in front of a european lady and you wil be sent home with a note!

 

[janetfan]

ah , the blue danube part was the one that ruined the picturesque image of the greek peasant!

Give me some credit seniorita. I was playing "Blue Danube" but using dorian and lydian modes ( I think they come from Mongolia ) I really made it sound very original.
After I got warmed up I made "Blue Danube" sound Like Coltrane's "My Favorite Things." I may be a nut, but I am a jazzy guy.
I even managed to spit some seeds into my flute while I was playing which gave me a most unique tone

Sorry - such silliness should be moved to the "Plushy topic" :yes:

 

[seniorita]

( I think they come from Mongolia )

har har :sheesh:

Sorry - such silliness should be moved to the "Plushy topic" :yes:

plushy topic, no thank you, there we have serious conversations, it s doing fine without watermalons and flutes . And it needs a little bit vacations anyway.

 

[Buttercup]

My dad loved music and art. He was good at photography and wrote nice poems. He loved to sing at home when he was happy and he used handkerchief (there was no kleenix in his time). My uncle was a self-taught violin player, a very good violin player actually. He made beautiful handcrafted tiny baskets and built a wooden keyboard for himself to learn piano. My mom was a national level basketball player and she loved everything - music, art, photography, and sports. In recent years, she has become an ardent soccer fan. What did that make?

I've got you all beat: my dad occasionally reads romance novels! And he's definitely straight.

The British are more laid-back then the Germans (we are German after all, we take stuff seriously!). The most drastic they would say is: "Hmm, I would have judged that differently" or "That surprises me now". But those moments are really rare.

Yes, they don't get overexcited, but will criticize if they feel it's warranted. They definitely point out reputation-based judging, or younger skaters not getting the marks they deserve.

How sad for our European friends :sheesh: Don't you realize that almighty American technolgy has given us the unimaginable pleasure of "seedless watermelons?"

Unless you buy stuff at the farmer's market, I wouldn't say that eating any American engineered fruits and veggies is a pleasure. Ugh, it's like eating wax candles instead of fresh produce. Watermelon seeds are like sunflower seeds - a snack you buy separately.

 

[janetfan]

Unless you buy stuff at the farmer's market, I wouldn't say that eating any American engineered fruits and veggies is a pleasure. Ugh, it's like eating wax candles instead of fresh produce. Watermelon seeds are like sunflower seeds - a snack you buy separately.

I have never eaten wax candles - is there a favorite brand Europeans prefer eating that you could recommend ?

 

[seniorita]

in brussels there are chocolate scent wax candles. Maybe they can be eaten also,I dunno...you should try them.

 

[Medusa]

And you thought figure skating has problems?

Read this. Okay, I know it is a tabloid. But I checked it out as much as I could and apparently it is true.

This is also rather funny, Stich was pummeled for those comments - but apparently the lad had a point.

----------------

It's actually the same problem figure skating has, just reversed. Figure skating is a girl's sport. But in society it is not appreciated when men act like girls. Therefore men have to behave differently from the girls while competing in the same sport, they have to butch up - in order to distract from the fact that men can be just us graceful, vulnerable and emotional as women.

Tennis is apparently a man's sport. But in society it is not appreciated if women act butch, look butch and grunt. Therefore those admirable atheletes at least have to look pretty and act in a feminine way, in order to distract from the fact that women can be just as butch, strong, cut-throat and self-confident as men.

Both "problems" threaten the established opinion society has of gender roles.

 

[jennylovskt]

Tennis is apparently a man's sport.

Not in USA. It's a sissy sport - I know it's ridiculous. Like considering soccer a sissy sport.

 

[Medusa]

Not in USA. It's a sissy sport - I know it's ridiculous. Like considering soccer a sissy sport.

Exactly how many sissies do you have there in the colonies? If you count together all the men who play soccer, play tennis, dance... That has to be a rather significant number by now.

 

[dlarry1]

Not in USA. It's a sissy sport - I know it's ridiculous. Like considering soccer a sissy sport.

Not sure what this ... assertion is based on. I've yet to read an article noting the sissy-like qualities of Roddick, Blake, Fish, the Bryans, Agassi, Sampras, Connors, McEnroe, etc. An elitist sport, perhaps (although the Williams' success challenges that as well) but I do not agree that America considers it sissy.

 

[janetfan]

Not sure what this ... assertion is based on. I've yet to read an article noting the sissy-like qualities of Roddick, Blake, Fish, the Bryans, Agassi, Sampras, Connors, McEnroe, etc. An elitist sport, perhaps (although the Williams' success challenges that as well) but I do not agree that America considers it sissy.

I am a tennis fan and have never heard of tennis being a sissy sport in the USA.
For one thing the top US tennis players have done a gazillion TV commercials here over the years. I haven't read the article but if that is what it assumes it would be wrong imo. We don't use perceived "sissys'" all that much on major network advertsing in USA.
Good soccer/football players from our National teams are not considered sissies either. But the sport is still perceived by many Americans as a way for boys not rough and tough enough to play "real" sports to have a chance at a gentler sport. The views I express here are not my views but my perception of certain sports and how they are thought of here.

 

[jennylovskt]

Hmmm, I might be wrong about this. That was the impression I've got through the years. Also it seems that there is some sort of connection between figure skating and tennis, which I do not know exactly where it is. So many male skaters also like tennis as one of their hobbies. You rarely see a male skater like baseball, or football. Even NBC employed Maria (forgot her last name) - one of the tennis commentators to broadcast figure skating in the Olympic Ice on channel USA during 2006 Olympics.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hmmm, I might be wrong about this. That was the impression I've got through the years. Also it seems that there is some sort of connection between figure skating and tennis, which I do not know exactly where it is. So many male skaters also like tennis as one of their hobbies. You rarely see a male skater like baseball, or football. Even NBC employed Maria (forgot her last name) - one of the tennis commentators to broadcast figure skating in the Olympic Ice on channel USA during 2006 Olympics.

I think little boys drift to be part of a team, or want to be a solo star. I think that is the pyschological rationale of choosing a sport.

 

[Mathman]

I think what dlarry said is right. Tennis, along with figure skating, was historically regarded as a refined "gentlemen's" sport (no grunting, please!) It was a leisure sport for the upper crust. Have the butler lay out my whites, I'm going to the officer's club.

Even NBC employed Maria (forgot her last name) - one of the tennis commentators to broadcast figure skating in the Olympic Ice on channel USA during 2006 Olympics.

Mary Carillo, an excellent sports commentator.

By the way, with regard to Janetfan's observation that U.S. advertisers don't give lucrative commercial contracts to people who make them feel uncomfortable, both Martina Navratalova and Billy Jean King lost all their endorsements when they came out.

 

[janetfan]

I think what dlarry said is right. Tennis, along with figure skating, was historically regarded as a refined "gentlemen's" sport (no grunting, please!) It was a leisure sport for the upper crust. Have the butler lay out my whites, I'm going to the officer's club.



Mary Carillo, an excellent sports commentator.

By the way, with regard to Janetfan's observation that U.S. advertisers don't give lucrative commercial contracts to people who make them feel uncomfortable, both Martina Navratalova and Billy Jean King lost all their endorsements when they came out.

Aside from Mary doubling as an announcer for tennis and a "features" reporter on skating - that had more to do with her network affiliation than any perceived expertise in skating. She is good and she handles skating fluff OK. She does not do analysis for skating if I remember correctly. Just fluffs and human nature stories or bios/profiles.
I see no connection between the sports in the USA. Would Brian Boitano be more likely to play tennis rather than golf, swimming or cycling, rock climbing, etc? I have no idea. I doubt if Andre Agassi was a figure skater in his spare time. I see no connection here. Just trying to explain that to Jenny. Again - I think the if the article suggest that tennis and skating have some connection in USA it would be wrong.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think what dlarry said is right. Tennis, along with figure skating, was historically regarded as a refined "gentlemen's" sport (no grunting, please!) It was a leisure sport for the upper crust. Have the butler lay out my whites, I'm going to the officer's club.



Mary Carillo, an excellent sports commentator.

By the way, with regard to Janetfan's observation that U.S. advertisers don't give lucrative commercial contracts to people who make them feel uncomfortable, both Martina Navratalova and Billy Jean King lost all their endorsements when they came out.

Why not include Polo, Badmington, Golf, and all the solo sports available? Some guys are more attracted to being Numero Uno. Nothing wrong with that; others are attracted to being one of guys on a Team.\\

I think Billy Jean and Martina were forced out. No? And what about General Mills announcing that Greg Louganis can not be on the cover of a Wheaties Box. The times, they are achanging now. No?

 

[jennylovskt]

Thanks to everyone who explained about it! Sometimes, I tend to jump into conclusion too fast. Maybe the swing is so beautiful in tennis which has attracted those figure skating boys? But I still don't get it why soccer is a sissy sport? I started to use size one too - a new tradition that I rarely saw GS members use untill medusa and seniorita came.

Right, Mary Carillo. I like her Olympic Ice program very much!