Compulsory Dance - Virtue/Moir and Davis/White - Round 1

[dorispulaski]

I'm OK with V/M beating D/W, but I find V/M's programs this year very boring, particularly their OD. This is partially because their OD was choregraphed to have a lot of motions with a large scarf prop, and without the prop, the dance doesn't make much sense and has very little gypsy character. I thought Umbrellas of Cherbourg was a lame movie, and I didn't like the concept when Shpilband had Punsalan & Swallow skating to it. I don't like it any better now that Shpilband has recycled it for V/M & COP, and it's too similar to their last year's program. They're starting to look like an all waltzes all the time couple, and I know they can do better than that!

Next year I hope that V/M show up with some really excellent choreography!

I love the Kerr's OD a lot; their FD, not so much, but I haven't seen their European version yet--I hope it's lots better than it was earlier in the season. I wish the Kerrs would arrive at the beginning of the season in shape. Every year it's the same thing-they start the GP unprepared and then they have to fight back the whole season.

K/N? I really like their programs this year, but not as much as DelSchoes & B&A.

Capellini & Lanotte, I just don't get. They're pretty people. That's it, but YMMV.

And why don't you mention Pechalat Bouzat? They have made huge improvements this year and have two great programs, very cleverly choregraphed? I like them!

F&S--I can't stand their Yentl the Butterfly program. It's such a dumb concept.

 

[all that]

Will see.
Why some people want, that D/W bit V/M? Why not B/A or Dom/Shab?
What is bad in V/M? There programs? If you cant understand somethig you start saying, that it "boring"? And the same liftes from D/W during 3 years - its nit boring?
I think, that Kh/N, F/S, Capelinni/Lanotter, Kers is more interesting teams and i cant understand, why D/W could bit them

I think your obvious V/M favoritism is clouding your vision. The following has been said 1) some people prefer D/W's FD over V/M's, 2) D/W may not be able to beat V/M this year, but perhaps in the future, if they continue to work hard.

In response to your post:
1) This is the 4CC's thread. So obviously the discussion is limited to V/M and D/W. D/W can't beat B/A or Dom/Shabs, because neither of them are competing at 4CCs. If you're talking about Worlds, D/W have no realistic chance of beating B/A or DomShabs. The team they'll be closest to ranking wise is V/M, so there can be a legitimate discussion about D/W perhaps beating V/M. However, most people acknowledge that probably won't happen this year.

2) Nobody is saying that V/M are bad. They are just saying that they don't like their FD. As for not understanding something and then calling it boring, it seems the only person doing that is you. I wonder if you are not able to "understand" D/W's FD, and so are therefore unable to truly appreciate it. D/W may be doing some of the same lifts as last year, but their emotional connection and skating skills are far better than years past. Perhaps you aren't able to see that?

3) Just because you think "Kh/N, F/S, Capelinni/Lanotter, Kers" are more interesting doesn't mean that everybody else does. If you want a legitimate discussion about why D/W may be able to beat these teams, you need to talk about technical and presentation skills anyway, not just what you find "interesting". Technically, I think D/W are better than all of the above teams, and so did the judges at Worlds last year. As we all know, D/W had a rough season this year, so we'll have to wait til Worlds to see how things are. However, if we can go by what has happened at 4CC's so far, the judges have scored D/W very close to V/M in the CD. We have to wait to see how much of a gap develops in the OD and FD, to see what the judges really think of D/W and their abilities to beat "Kh/N, F/S, Capelinni/Lanotter, Kers"

 

[Tesla]

I'm simply saying that in the future, D/W might beat V/M. This year, I'm sure DomShab, DelSchoe, and B/A will beat V/M. I'm defending D/W. I think D/W are a great team and almost on par with V/M. As for the same lifts, the same can be said for the same type of music. For V/M, I think "Umbrellas of Cherbourg" and "Valse Triste" are very similar and hence, the programs are very similar, floaty, romantic dances. I freely admit that I hate the music for both (although "Valse" more), so that contributes to the boringness for me. I also find the floaty romance kinda boring too. Last year, D/W skated a dramatic fast-paced piece. This year, they are skating a tragic, heart-breaking piece. "Eleanor Rigby" is such devastating, extraordinary piece that thoroughly pulled me in, in all its iterations. As much as I love B/A, D/W enthralled me at Nats. V/M make me want to poke my ears, but I think that's mostly the music.

Again, I think both are wonderfuly teams, but I don't think V/M are as unbeatable as many make it seem. Perhaps now, D/W can't beat them, but in the future, anything is possible. I also wonder if D/W will be held back at 4CCs. If they skate as well as Nats, I don't see why D/W can't remain vercy close to V/M if not squeak by them.

ETA Wow! A few posts while I was composing my treatise. For the record, I agree with the above posters.

 

[npa]

I personally like Belbin & Agosto, Delobel & Schoenfelder, Domnina & Shabalin, Davis & White, Khoklova & Novistski, Faiella & Scali, the Kerrs, Navarro & Bommentre, Pechalat & Bouzat, Capelinni & Lanotte AND Virtue & Moir. It is possible to like more than one. Unfortunately I like them all. Which makes it very difficult to pick a fav for the podium at Worlds. LOL Or for any competition for that matter.

You are very happy person - in all cases your favor team will be on podium

 

[all that]

They're starting to look like an all waltzes all the time couple, and I know they can do better than that!

Next year I hope that V/M show up with some really excellent choreography!

I hope so to, but I wonder if Marina will let that happen? I just get the feeling that she has a very specific vision for them. However, I have absolutely no basis for this feeling, and it is not rooted in any facts.

 

[Pikachuusb]

You are very happy person - in all cases your favor team will be on podium

you have a good point I always just have to hope they all skate thier best That way the winner skated a beautiful program

 

[Tinymavy15]

Davis and White should have been in first. They are so quick and they match so well.

 

[dorispulaski]

I hope so to, but I wonder if Marina will let that happen? I just get the feeling that she has a very specific vision for them. However, I have absolutely no basis for this feeling, and it is not rooted in any facts.

I hope V&M will bypass Marina and go hire someone else with a better vision for them. It is possible that this is somehow a request from Skate Canada? After the great success of Dubreuil and Lauzon with sugary romantic pieces perhaps the interpretation is that the Canadian public (not to mention the world judges?) want saccharine waltzy romance. I hope that is not the case, and if so, I am in a hundred depressions, because I really dislike those kinds of programs, and I would truly hate to see V&M condemned to skate such tripe forever.

 

[bellafurr]

I like Davis and White, They are very good but have they ever come ahead aof Virtue and Moir except for last years 4 cont. C,D.

 

[lmarie086]

npa, how about giving D/W some credit? D/W and V/M are both young, talented teams with bright futures. I like them both, but prefer D/W.
It's ok that you prefer V/M to D/W-everyone should have their favorites, its a good thing-but remember that not everyone will agree with you. I for one have only become interested in ice dance because of D/W; they have so much potential that they haven't tapped into yet.
Unfortunately I haven't seen the CDs from 4CC yet so I can't say anything about them, but at the Nationals everyone was saying that D/W had very tidy, quick feet and they were just excellent. Hard to imagine that they would all of a sudden have "dirty feet" and dance "like two children."
Also remember, V/M are now Canadian #1; D/W are American #2. V/M's scores are bound to be higher internationally partially because of that, the judges won't see D/W as being the same level (although I think they're quite close). But they might keep in mind how close D/W were to B/A at Nationals (should have been even closer!).
Wow I didn't mean to write so much lol.

 

[npa]

."
Also remember, V/M are now Canadian #1; D/W are American #2. V/M's scores are bound to be higher internationally partially because of that, the judges won't see D/W as being the same level (although I think they're quite close). But they might keep in mind how close D/W were to B/A at Nationals (should have been even closer!).
Wow I didn't mean to write so much lol.

I think. this competition is very pro-american. Team N4 in USA had the same score, like team N2 in Canada. Its mean, that its not important - did you take fist place in your country or no - most important - its a level of your skating.
Will see tomorrow, what will happened in OD - it could be a good fight

 

[Mathman]

...I didn't like the concept when Shpilband had Punsalan & Swallow skating to it.

I was totally charmed by Pulsalen and Swallow's version. I once saw them perform it as an exhibition outside in the snow -- I thought it was super.

 

[silver.blades]

I don't get all the comparisons to V/M program from last year and this year other than they're both waltz type programs. Last years was much better, in choreography and music. Every time the vocals come in on their curret FD I want to put my head through a wall.
Last years program was elegant, mature and refined. This years is sentamental and smoltzy. People say that they don't like that they do the same thing every year. They've been at the Sr. level for 2 years, that's not really a long trend and again I don't think the programs are that similar. Adding in the fact that D/L had romantic programs for their last 2 seasons and adding that to the fact that the Canadian pairs need to try something new isn't right either. You don't have to like either team but complaining about lack of diversity is a bit premature. N/K did the same FD their entire career. The music might have changed but the choreo was very similar. At least V/M's choreo changed, even if it did digress.

 

[Tonichelle]

Yay NavBom and Jennifer and Daniil!!!!

 

[chuckm]

I hope V&M will bypass Marina and go hire someone else with a better vision for them. It is possible that this is somehow a request from Skate Canada? After the great success of Dubreuil and Lauzon with sugary romantic pieces perhaps the interpretation is that the Canadian public (not to mention the world judges?) want saccharine waltzy romance. I hope that is not the case, and if so, I am in a hundred depressions, because I really dislike those kinds of programs, and I would truly hate to see V&M condemned to skate such tripe forever.

I so agree with this. And I do NOT believe the World judges want 'saccharine waltzy romance'.

The reason why Dubreiul/Lauzon scored with their first schmaltzy FD was it was different from what every other dance team was doing. When they did a similar FD the following year, they did well, but did not win Worlds as they perhaps expected, but again finished 2nd to a DenSta power piece.

V/M also did a romantic FD last year and got high marks for it. They are doing an even more soppily sentimental FD this year and are still getting high marks, but they did not win NHK vs. DelShoes, and they did not medal at the GPF. Maybe the judges are getting a bit tired of schmaltz, or perhaps they are beginning to think V/M are in a bit of a rut?

 

[bellafurr]

In a rut after being in seniors for 2 years

 

[dorispulaski]

In a rut after being in seniors for 2 years

Perhaps in danger of getting into a rut would be closer to it. If they go for a 3rd serving of even more sugary sentimentality next year, that would be a rut.

Ice dance judging & crowds are very fickle, what can I say? As in fashion, One day you're in, the next you're out. Auf wiedersehen.

Dancers are expected to have new material every year, and posters get annoyed when they don't.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It seems we are looking for the old Russian passion and nothing less.:scratch:

for me, it's whatever the skater(s) do with whatever music they use as the most important consideraton. I can do without Polivstian Dances and Tosca because of their continued use but if that's what they are doing, so be it. i only ask is that the skaters do not follow the stories of the Operas. Following a libretto is not original. Give me something unique. The music is there. Deal with it.

What I like most about V/M is that they work together. With D/W, i see a mismatch. I'll watch more closely in Gothenberg.

Joe

 

[all that]

V/M also did a romantic FD last year and got high marks for it. They are doing an even more soppily sentimental FD this year and are still getting high marks, but they did not win NHK vs. DelShoes, and they did not medal at the GPF. Maybe the judges are getting a bit tired of schmaltz, or perhaps they are beginning to think V/M are in a bit of a rut?

Or perhaps the expectations of skating fans are rather ridiculous? V/M are only 18 and 20, only in their second year in the senior circuit, and haven't even finished physically growing yet. And people are complaining that they didn't win NHK v. DelShoes -- a team that is practically 10 years older than them? The fact that they beat DelSchoes in both the OD and FD is astounding. As for medaling in the GPF -- the fact that people actually thought this was possible is even more to their credit, considering the podium winners have years of senior experience compared to V/M.

As for having a rather similar style -- I have no complaints about it, because as I see it, they may have decided to go with a similar style so that they could focus on other areas of their skating -- such as lifts, speed, and ice coverage. All of which are miles better this year, and are the skills which make people think they are in the same league as the very top teams. Now that they have those things down pat, they can focus on trying different emotional themes, etc., next year. But the speed, ice coverage, and lifts, really needed to be focused on first.

Davis and White were in a different situation. First off, though Charlie might still grow a little bit, Meryl has been finished growing for a while, which meant they didn't have quite the speed and ice coverage issues V/M had last year (since they were still growing). Secondly, Meryl is smaller than Tessa, and there is a greater height difference between Meryl and Charlie, so lifts haven't been a problem for them either. What they needed to focus on was connection and emotion -- and so they came up with a program that did just that. What I'd like to see next year is a little more focus on body movement (more care in matching lines, pointing toes when necessary, extension, etc).

The point of all this is that I believe V/M and D/W chose to focus on different things last summer, and their program choices reflect that. I don't think V/M is in a rut by any means.

 

[chuckm]

V/M haven't finished growing physically yet at 18 and 20? You'd better hope she has finished growing, or their future as a team could be in jeopardy.

The thing is they were EXPECTED to win at NHK (and they expected to win as well). Go back and read some of the threads leading up to that competition. The talk was Delshoes FD scores were so low compared to V/M that V/M, even if behind in the CD and/or OD, would swamp DelShoes in the FD. It didn't happen.

They were also EXPECTED to medal at the GPF, especially since there was no CD, their weakest segment. You could see in the KnC when they got their marks for the OD that they were shocked at their score (lower than their GP events). The score for their FD was their lowest of the season as well.

The critical time will come next season. If V/M opt for still another sicky-sweet FD, they could find their upward trajectory slow to a standstill.