Confused about the new Waltz

[4everchan]

I think 4/4 can sound like 12/8 if no backbeats, 6/8 with backbeats.

E.g. if I have 4/4 with backbeat on 2 and 4, and triplets, then it's equivalent to 6/8 (and a lot of blues is structured like that traditionally iirc, or at least I was told so at a seminar once). In that sense, whether its written as 6/8 or 4/4 (or maybe evn 2/4 I guess?1?) then it can become equivalent (I think?)

Im not a time signature expert though, starting to get a headache and apologise if I made a mistake?

Unrelated, but some 6/8 can sound like 3/4 or 12/8. For me golden hour sounds like 6/8, but sometimes I see it transcribed as 3/4 and sometimes 12/8

compound meter cannot sound like simple meter. Sorry if you are only listening to eighth notes, you are not listening to beats but subdivision of beats. You have to listen to the beats to really hear meter.

6/8 has two beats. A strong beat and a weak beat.
3/4 has three beats. A strong beat and two weak beats.

Both have the same number of eighth notes, that's true but they sound completely different, just like the examples I have posted in the first post I made in this thread.

 

[FSFan1999]

compound meter cannot sound like simple meter. Sorry if you are only listening to eighth notes, you are not listening to beats but subdivision of beats. You have to listen to the beats to really hear meter.

6/8 has two beats. A strong beat and a weak beat.
3/4 has three beats. A strong beat and two weak beats.

Both have the same number of eighth notes, that's true but they sound completely different, just like the examples I have posted in the first post I made in this thread.

In my last comment wasnt talking about 3/4, but rather specificially talking about 6/8 underlying a lot of 4/4 blues in response to mathman who realised, that the math doesnt add up (although can be added up when using backbeats). In some blues, it's even notated 6/8 playing on other instruments at 4/4. Sometimes everything notated 6/8. You could transcribe *certain* 6/8 and 12/8 songs as 4/4 and have same outcome, depending on instrument arrangement. In the past there have been occasions (maybe kerrs?) Using same song, skating to the different beats during different parts.

 

[4everchan]

The last thing I will mention here which is rather important :

When we are giving examples of time signatures and meter here, you gotta understand that in the music itself, the subdivisions of beats are not always textbook basic and regular. You could have for instance, a 6/8 bar with a dotted quarter note, then 3 eighth notes. You could have tons of variations inside each measure. So your 6 eighth notes in 6/8 that you may want to hear as the 6 eighth notes subdividing the 3 beats of 3/4 just to get a waltz are not always there. Actually, it would be very boring if they were.

So, the nice dance and figure skating people who tweak music to dance to it, just have to add in a constant pulse to make it clear to everyone. This is also what is killing the waltzes. It grounds everything down and there is no feeling of lift anymore.

So, if it's a true waltz, you would most likely do not need to add boom box beats to make sure everyone understands it works as a waltz .

 

[4everchan]

In my last comment wasnt talking about 3/4, but rather specificially talking about 6/8 underlying a lot of 4/4 blues in response to mathman who realised, that the math doesnt add up (although can be added up when using backbeats). In some blues, it's even notated 6/8 playing on other instruments at 4/4. Sometimes everything notated 6/8. You could transcribe *certain* 6/8 and 12/8 songs as 4/4 and have same outcome, depending on instrument arrangement. In the past there have been occasions (maybe kerrs?) Using same song, skating to the different beats during different parts.

yes I know some pop musicians do that. It's a shortcut that isn't really correct. It's as if some people would write everything in C major to avoid key signatures and just "tuned" their guitare in different keys.

 

[gkelly]

What do we think about this ice dance? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQADqQRO0UU

It is meant to be skated to music written in 3/4 time, but it has a quick tempo of 198 beats/minute. All the strokes are 6 counts (either swing rolls or three turns) and it's often counted in 6 beats, with a strong down action on 1 and a strong up on the 4.

 

[Mathman]

^ Great find. Thank you. Whatever the time signature, that looks, sounds and feels like a proper waltz.

 

[4everchan]

What do we think about this ice dance? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQADqQRO0UU

It is meant to be skated to music written in 3/4 time, but it has a quick tempo of 198 beats/minute. All the strokes are 6 counts (either swing rolls or three turns) and it's often counted in 6 beats, with a strong down action on 1 and a strong up on the 4.

I hear 6/8 not a waltz. looks like it, doesn't sound likei it.

 

[Diana Delafield]

In my last comment wasnt talking about 3/4, but rather specificially talking about 6/8 underlying a lot of 4/4 blues in response to mathman who realised, that the math doesnt add up (although can be added up when using backbeats). In some blues, it's even notated 6/8 playing on other instruments at 4/4. Sometimes everything notated 6/8. You could transcribe *certain* 6/8 and 12/8 songs as 4/4 and have same outcome, depending on instrument arrangement. In the past there have been occasions (maybe kerrs?) Using same song, skating to the different beats during different parts.

This isn't what you were talking about, but I had to laugh when my eye was caught by your mention of the Kerrs. Perhaps there was some unconscious influence in their case in that quick marches by Scottish pipe bands are always 6/8 -- left foot on 1, right foot on 4. Definitely no waltzing

I could not convince one of my past temporary partners that, no matter how many times I thumped out the rhythm on the boards for him. (His parents were from Scotland, so it wasn't as if the music was foreign to him.) He clung doggedly to his conviction that marches had to be 4/4 and 6/8 had to be a waltz because it was just a fast 3/4. He's probably out there somewhere teaching his pupils a waltz to "All the Blue Bonnets are Over the Border".

 

[Jumping_Bean]

What do we think about this ice dance? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQADqQRO0UU

It is meant to be skated to music written in 3/4 time, but it has a quick tempo of 198 beats/minute. All the strokes are 6 counts (either swing rolls or three turns) and it's often counted in 6 beats, with a strong down action on 1 and a strong up on the 4.

It actually reminded me of another reason to be annoyed at choreographers/coaches. While Seniors and Juniors have not been required to do a Waltz pattern in in a long time, Novices do (different) Waltz pattern dances basically every year. So if they work with Novices in any regular capacity, they should have a lot of experience with the Waltz and at least picking music written in 3/4 time.

Just last season, the Advanced Novices were doing the Starlight Waltz as one of their pattern dances, the year before the Westminster Waltz, both of which were required to be skated to music with a 3/4 time signature.

 

[FlossieH]

9/8 I could just about have understood. It at least has three beats in a bar. 6/8 has two beats in a bar and is not (and cannot be) a waltz.

 

[FSFan1999]

9/8 I could just about have understood. It at least has three beats in a bar. 6/8 has two beats in a bar and is not (and cannot be) a waltz.

9/8 has the same problem as 6/8 if you are timing on the mini-beats, which everybody skating to 6/8 is doing. Yes, it has 3 strong pulses per bar, but the strong pulse is on where skaters will be skating the "1-2-3" similar to 6/8. The only difference is the main beat (which skaters wouldnt be using) would be similar to a waltz?

whilst 9/8 would not be worse than 6/8 in terms of using it as a golden waltz, there are practical limitations to think about (whether judges would get confused judging the timing and understanding which beats they were using). Of course, if they wanted true waltz then 6/8 is not correct as previously discussed, and only 3/4 could be used. 9/8 might be closer than 6/8, however I can see it to be very confusing vs 6/8 when it comes to judging it.

Unrelated but interesting: most waltz has the OM-PAH-PAH feeling, but many vienesse waltzes were written with a OM-PAH-pah feeling, with a less strong third beat as part of the lilting/(waiting?) movement of the ballroom dance.

 

[FlossieH]

9/8 has the same problem as 6/8 if you are timing on the mini-beats, which everybody skating to 6/8 is doing. Yes, it has 3 strong pulses per bar, but the strong pulse is on where skaters will be skating the "1-2-3" similar to 6/8. The only difference is the main beat (which skaters wouldnt be using) would be similar to a waltz?

whilst 9/8 would not be worse than 6/8 in terms of using it as a golden waltz, there are practical limitations to think about (whether judges would get confused judging the timing and understanding which beats they were using). Of course, if they wanted true waltz then 6/8 is not correct as previously discussed, and only 3/4 could be used. 9/8 might be closer than 6/8, however I can see it to be very confusing vs 6/8 when it comes to judging it.

Unrelated but interesting: most waltz has the OM-PAH-PAH feeling, but many vienesse waltzes were written with a OM-PAH-pah feeling, with a less strong third beat as part of the lilting/(waiting?) movement of the ballroom dance.

In 9/8 I would expect only the main beats to be used, giving 3 in a bar. It still wouldn't really be a waltz, but would at least have three beats per bar rather than the two which 6/8 has.

Maybe they all need to skate to Messiaen's Quartet for the end of time!

 

[Mathman]

Here's 9/8. Dave Brubeck's Blue Rondo a la Turk, 1959, released on the same album as Take Five (5/4).

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[4everchan]

Here's 9/8. Dave Brubeck's Blue Rondo a la Turk, 1959, released on the same album as Take Five (5/4).

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

hehe
this would be hell for anyone to skate to. Brubeck is playing with the rhythm here. One bar is divided like a normal 9/8 with 3 groupings of 3 eighth notes but he is contrasting this with the other bar which sounds like it has four attacks. 3 groups of 2 eighth notes followed by a group of 3 eighths, Please use with caution.

 

[lariko]

What do we think about this ice dance? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQADqQRO0UU

It is meant to be skated to music written in 3/4 time, but it has a quick tempo of 198 beats/minute. All the strokes are 6 counts (either swing rolls or three turns) and it's often counted in 6 beats, with a strong down action on 1 and a strong up on the 4.

This is what I expected for this season to a bit different music, versus what I have seen in junior testing.

 

[lariko]

Here's 9/8. Dave Brubeck's Blue Rondo a la Turk, 1959, released on the same album as Take Five (5/4).

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

This to me sounds like a woodpecker high on sugar pecking keyboard

 

[Mathman]

... I had to laugh when my eye was caught by your mention of the Kerrs. Perhaps there was some unconscious influence in their case in that quick marches by Scottish pipe bands are always 6/8 -- left foot on 1, right foot on 4. Definitely no waltzing...

6/8 = Washington Post March. 3/4 = Tales from the Vienna Woods. (By the way, "autofill"supplies "0.75" after either "6/8 =" or "3/4 =" )

On the other hand, I try to be openminded. Why not try a traditional dance form to music that was not specifically composed for that genre?. Can you do a Polka to a Mazurka tune? In particular, to a Chopin Mazurka? Too much of a mismatch?

 

[Mathman]

This [Dave Brubeck's Blue Rondo a la Turk] to me sounds like a woodpecker high on sugar pecking keyboard

I once played in a little combo that featured Armenian music. I was the only non-Armenian in the group, and we played at Armenian wedding receptions, etc. Once we tried to slip in this Turkish-inspired tune and got booed off the stage.

 

[Diana Delafield]

6/8 = Washington Post March. 3/4 = Tales from the Vienna Woods. (By the way, "autofill"supplies "0.75" after either "6/8 =" or "3/4 =" )

On the other hand, I try to be openminded. Why not try a traditional dance form to music that was not specifically composed for that genre?. Can you do a Polka to a Mazurka tune? In particular, to a Chopin Mazurka? Too much of a mismatch?

I had to look up that particular march, recognizing it when I heard it, but not by its title. You could do a polka to that. Certainly for ballroom dance it depends on whether the 1 and 4 of a 6/8 time get equal or unequal emphasis. I've seen both a waltz done to the Skye Boat Song (unequal weight to 1 and 4), and a slow march at a police funeral for a native of Skye (equal weighted pace to the 1 and 4).