Davis and Smolkin making move to IAM

[Skating91]

Relatively is a big word here. Gubanova is capable of the best but also the worst. She barely qualify for the LP at worlds. She will never get top marks because her skating is unidimensional. Maddie beat her at quite a few events in the past, so Canada's worse discipline is able to take out Georgia's stronger competitor...

Maddie has beaten Gubanova before and can do it again. Gubanova is very bland and not only she is inconsistent but even when she is clean, she doesn't have the sparkle others have. I felt so before but watching her 3 times at worlds(practice and both programs) hasn't convinced me that she is "special". Sorry not sorry.

Sorry, but this needed to be fact checked.

Gubanova in six performances in 2021/22 scored over 200 twice, the other four performances ranging from 184-196.

Schizas in 2021/22 excluding Canadian Nationals because of generous scoring (still she only scored 198), scored over 190 only once (192), over five scores ranged from 173-188.

Gubanova had five performances in 2022/23 highest score 199, scoring 193 or higher three times, 184 and a 166. I felt officials were really tough on her this season and I think it's related to something I will not discuss.

Schizas (excluding Canadian Nationals again), highest score of 187, scoring over 180 five times, other three performances ranged from 159-166.

Gubanova in 2023/24 highest score of 206, other five performances ranged from 179-187.

Schizas in 2023/24 highest score of 189, other four performances ranged from 171-188.

By every metric, scoring and consistency, Gubanova wins.

Don't forget that Georgian skaters don't get bonuses either, so her scores would be higher if from one of the big skating feds like USA or Japan, or one that is smaller but very political.

 

[4everchan]

Sorry, but this needed to be fact checked.

Gubanova in six performances in 2021/22 scored over 200 twice, the other four performances ranging from 184-196.

Schizas in 2021/22 excluding Canadian Nationals because of generous scoring (still she only scored 198), scored over 190 only once (192), over five scores ranged from 173-188.

Gubanova had five performances in 2022/23 highest score 199, scoring 193 or higher three times, 184 and a 166.

Schizas (excluding Canadian Nationals again), highest score of 187, scoring over 180 five times, other three performances ranged from 159-166.

Gubanova in 2023/24 highest score of 206, other five performances ranged from 179-187.

Schizas in 2023/24 highest score of 189, other four performances ranged from 171-188.

Don't forget that Georgian skaters don't get bonuses either, so her scores would be higher if from one of the big skating feds like USA or Japan, or one that is smaller but very political.

https://results.isu.org/results/season2122/owg2022/SEG011.htm

ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2022 - Women - Short Program

www.isuresults.com

ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2023

ISU World Championships 2024 - Women - Short Program

www.isuresults.com

Those were the ones on top of my head. As you know, in the team event, it's not about scores, it's about placement. And Maddie, at least 4 times at big events, had the upper hand on Nastya in one segment of the competition. So that means that in the team event, there is enough statistical chance for it to happen again. I could go even further saying that Maddie seems to do better in the SPs and for the team event, it's where it's the most important. Both skaters seem to have one good program out of the two... and rarely have put two good programs together in big events. I'd say they are both very inconsistent

No idea why you felt you needed to correct something that was already accurate Also, comparing scores of competitions where they weren't even competing against one another is useless... Why mention Canadian Nationals? And finally, if people think Canadian Nationals inflate scores in singles, they need to watch and look at the score cards. Shin Amano is light beer compared to Kevin Reynolds and co.

Can we get back to Davis and Smolkin ? I am really curious to see what people think about them training with direct rivals like Lim and Quan.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

IAM has had some of these too you know Hubbell Donohue for starters. Virtue and Moir. Lajoie and Lagha. What IAM is especially good at is recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of their teams and showcase the first very well while hiding the latter brilliantly, for instance with great choreo, tricks and gimmicks If the Italian academy wants to compete, they will need to learn how to do the same.

It's worth noting Zanni has built many of these teams from scratch, teaching ice dance from the start. Hubble/Donehue were both powerful skaters before IAM, same wirh Virtue/Moir (not sure about La/La's history). What zanni has done well is teach everything from the start, with his teams improving in power across the board. There are many schools with powerful teams, very few have developed the training method like Zanni.

 

[danceblade]

It's worth noting Zanni has built many of these teams from scratch, teaching ice dance from the start. Hubble/Donehue were both powerful skaters before IAM, same wirh Virtue/Moir (not sure about La/La's history). What zanni has done well is teach everything from the start, with his teams improving in power across the board. There are many schools with powerful teams, very few have developed the training method like Zanni.

Good point, also Alexei and his original team of WISA (Wheaton Academy when they were in Maryland) developed many of the top dancers including Michael, Caroline, Lorraine, Quinn, Ian, Molly, Yeghor, Alexei Jr., Liza from a very young age. Development is their strength.

 

[4everchan]

It's worth noting Zanni has built many of these teams from scratch, teaching ice dance from the start. Hubble/Donehue were both powerful skaters before IAM, same wirh Virtue/Moir (not sure about La/La's history). What zanni has done well is teach everything from the start, with his teams improving in power across the board. There are many schools with powerful teams, very few have developed the training method like Zanni.

It's really hard to tell with some teams where they truly started. Do you know for sure that the Czech for instance started directly there ? Weren't they skating singles before ? Or you mean that they started ice dance with Zanni... but they already had some basic skills and probably speed already. It's really complicated to say : this skater is 100% Egna or IAM made and to draw conclusions from that right ?

I mean Laurence is listed as a Town of Mont-Royal skating club representative but she certainly trained with MFD for a very long time. LaLa were both South Shore kids... but for a very very long time, since they are competing, they are with IAM. I have never seen them with other coaches since they are competing "in the public eye" Emmy and Aissa are both listed as representing Gadbois skating club which is the home of IAM. I would think they always were at Gadbois/ IAM.

I am pretty confident IAM does develop talent from scratch but they have a lot of teams who come there to polish up later in their career. The public will never find out about the dozens of kids who started out there because the focus is on the international elite.

I guess we know more about this kind of evolution when a school is smaller. But the point remains, speed without precision or purpose is a double edged sword.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

It's really hard to tell with some teams where they truly started. Do you know for sure that the Czech for instance started directly there ? Weren't they skating singles before ? Or you mean that they started ice dance with Zanni... but they already had some basic skills and probably speed already. It's really complicated to say : this skater is 100% Egna or IAM made and to draw conclusions from that right ?

I mean Laurence is listed as a Town of Mont-Royal skating club representative but she certainly trained with MFD for a very long time. LaLa were both South Shore kids... but for a very very long time, since they are competing, they are with IAM. I have never seen them with other coaches since they are competing "in the public eye" Emmy and Aissa are both listed as representing Gadbois skating club which is the home of IAM. I would think they always were at Gadbois/ IAM.

I am pretty confident IAM does develop talent from scratch but they have a lot of teams who come there to polish up later in their career. The public will never find out about the dozens of kids who started out there because the focus is on the international elite.

I guess we know more about this kind of evolution when a school is smaller. But the point remains, speed without precision or purpose is a double edged sword.

Personally witnessing development of skaters in his school, including before they were with him and before they started ice dance. Natural aptitude to power, maybe. But also clearly the combination of the physical and technical training taught to show the development from singles skaters to ice dance. From my understanding as well, the off ice from Zanni is more directly prescribed by specialists he selects within group sessions, whereas many IAM skaters work with their own trainers separately - which might have an impact.

Neither Czech team had a particuarly high level of skating before Zanni (but of course all hard workers and had talent), and same with a lot of skaters coached by him. Mrazeks are probably lacking the level of precision of IAM skaters, but they are first year seniors. I can also point to IAM couples that lack both speed and precision. Taschlers I'd argue have the precision, just different style of skskating. Choreography of course IAM has the edge.

Emmy/Aissa I assume started ice dance with IAM.
in terms of developing young talent, the reason we don't see more IAM teams there from the start is simply the cost. It's not affordable for most skaters, unless they're already at a high level, as the cost simply isn't worth it. With IAM development school starting (with Benjamin Brisbois as main coach there), I think they aim to try produce more talent from the beginning. Of course Zanni is probably the most expensive ice dance coach in Europe, but even that is significantly cheaper than in US/Canada - and in addition more group classes etc can reduce the cost a lot.

Romain in Lyon used to coach skaters from the start and develop more couples, I believe MF and Patrice less so since creating IAM. Romain also took on Fear/Gibson as a relatively new couple, and certainly helped them climb the ranks (alongside other IAM coaches of course).

I'm not suggesting they are incapable of producing skaters from scratch, far from it: more that it's not fair to really use Hubble/Donehue and Virtue/Moir as a comparison to Zanni's school as an example of producing skaters with strong power and glide, when they had very developed skating before IAM (Virtue/Moir of course being world + olympic champions as well).

 

[4everchan]

Personally witnessing development of skaters in his school, including before they were with him and before they started ice dance. Natural aptitude to power, maybe. But also clearly the combination of the physical and technical training taught to show the development from singles skaters to ice dance. From my understanding as well, the off ice from Zanni is more directly prescribed by specialists he selects within group sessions, whereas many IAM skaters work with their own trainers separately - which might have an impact.

Neither Czech team had a particuarly high level of skating before Zanni (but of course all hard workers and had talent), and same with a lot of skaters coached by him. Mrazeks are probably lacking the level of precision of IAM skaters, but they are first year seniors. I can also point to IAM couples that lack both speed and precision. Taschlers I'd argue have the precision, just different style of skskating. Choreography of course IAM has the edge.

Emmy/Aissa I assume started ice dance with IAM.
in terms of developing young talent, the reason we don't see more IAM teams there from the start is simply the cost. It's not affordable for most skaters, unless they're already at a high level, as the cost simply isn't worth it. With IAM development school starting (with Benjamin Brisbois as main coach there), I think they aim to try produce more talent from the beginning. Of course Zanni is probably the most expensive ice dance coach in Europe, but even that is significantly cheaper than in US/Canada - and in addition more group classes etc can reduce the cost a lot.

Romain in Lyon used to coach skaters from the start and develop more couples, I believe MF and Patrice less so since creating IAM. Romain also took on Fear/Gibson as a relatively new couple, and certainly helped them climb the ranks (alongside other IAM coaches of course).

I'm not suggesting they are incapable of producing skaters from scratch, far from it: more that it's not fair to really use Hubble/Donehue and Virtue/Moir as a comparison to Zanni's school as an example of producing skaters with strong power and glide, when they had very developed skating before IAM (Virtue/Moir of course being world + olympic champions as well).

Of course, bringing up teams who are already seasoned and just moved to IAM in the latter stage is not a proper comparison. I think LALA would be a good one. Probably also Laurence or even Carolane who may have started somewhere else but moved there quite young. Lim and Quan only joined IAM upon teaming up but that's already 5 years and they are just starting in seniors... So LaLa and the Koreans could probably be a good comparison to the Czech teams of Zanni's school.

I deal with the same stuff in my field. I get students who are very strong, coming from elsewhere... and I have to adjust their technique... and sometimes I wonder, do I really like this or do I prefer to build them up from younger with proper skills from the get go

I think in some ways, it's much easier to build up kids when they are younger and bring them up to a high level than trying to fix improper technique with young adults.

 

[Skating91]

A way to get around skaters being forced to go country shopping like Davis/Smolkin and many others in order to perform, have quotas for clubs in addition to the usual country quotas assuming these clubs meet a criteria. A team like Davis/Smolkin or any mixed nationality couple can compete immediately for a club rather than waste time politicking as they go country shopping. It's a global sport after all.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

An article (in Ukrainian, but Google Translate doesn't seem to do anything too odd to it?) about the thoughts of Golubtsova and Belobrov (the Ukrainian ice dance team who train at I.AM) on D/S joining the team there:

https://suspilne.media/sport/727155...uutsa-z-ukraincami-v-kanadi-ak-na-ce-reaguut/

 

[Flying Feijoa]

An article (in Ukrainian, but Google Translate doesn't seem to do anything too odd to it?) about the thoughts of Golubtsova and Belobrov (the Ukrainian ice dance team who train at I.AM) on D/S joining the team there:

https://suspilne.media/sport/727155...uutsa-z-ukraincami-v-kanadi-ak-na-ce-reaguut/

Side note, I don't like the fact that the article offhandedly criticises Aleksandr Selevko and Roman Sadovsky for not giving an opinion, or at least not being as vocal as the journal seems to expect them to.
They were born and raised in other countries and shouldn't be singled out for comment any more than other competitive figure skaters. It's analogous to asking Michelle Kwan or Patrick Chan for their opinion on Chinese politics, and then complaining if they give a diplomatic answer.
(It also mentioned Olga Mikutina, but since she emigrated as a young teen it makes slightly more sense to ask her.)

 

[icewhite]

I have thought about an answer to write but I cannot think of a proper one that does not break the forum rules.
So I'll try to phrase it in the most open way: I understand the general notion. But I feel the article as well as many other people who have a problem with especially this particular move do not adress the real problems logically.
There is a logical difference in the responsibility of someone directly funded by the Russian state or training on Russian state facilities and someone who does not start under the Russian flag and is not directly state funded. Of course we all suspect very well where the money comes from that finances this team. But this team has not actively supported the war, nor does it start for Russia. There are other skaters I'd like to ask questions (political and non political ones) but they do not get asked. It seems to me this team gets singled out while other skaters' (maybe much heavier) baggage does not get talked about in a similar way.
In my opinion it would be necessary to talk about the perceived problems in a very concrete and logical way - what makes a person responsible for what in which way?
I do not think that diffuse mumbling "...Eteri's daughter..." is helpful.

 

[IceDancingQueen]

As far as baggage/shenanigans go, I don't think the I.AM school will tolerate it -- that's not to imply I think Davis/Smolkin will cause any. I remember reading an interview with Madison Hubbell where she talked about the move to I.AM, and she mentioned Patrice in particular talking about the expectations the school has for skaters' behavior. The gist of it was -- I.AM wants things to be "drama free" at their school. (Dance is dramatic enough LOL)

Haha yes it is dramatic enough. Yeah obviously IAM thinks D/S will not be the ones to bring the drama which is good. Just goes to show how much baggage they have been carrying which isn’t of their own making!

 

[Crowdproud]

Side note, I don't like the fact that the article offhandedly criticises Aleksandr Selevko and Roman Sadovsky for not giving an opinion, or at least not being as vocal as the journal seems to expect them to.

Yes, that was bizarre. I doubt that these two skaters consider themselves Ukrainian. It's akin to the Russian sports press occasionally attempting to present Ilia Malinin as a "Russian" skater. Some sort of E. European primordialism.