Did Kaetlyn Osmond make history?

[drivingmissdaisy]

Medevedeva's jumps get uniformly high GOE because they are consistently executed well with additional features (the tanos, whether we appreciate them or not).

I agree that Evgenia's jumps deserve the GOE they get based on what the scoring system prioritizes. I just think the scoring system doesn't reward the quality of the underlying element enough. I almost feel like the additional features should be like extra credit, raising a B element to a B+, not an A+.

 

[Mathman]

... the more naturally gifted athletes will always beat the less gifted athletes.

This is true in every sport.

 

[gsyzf]

This is true in every sport.

In practice, only the more talented and hard working athletes beat the less talented and hard working athletes. But The more talented but less hard working won't beat the less talented athletes but hard working athletes in most sports. Not all talented athletes perform to their potential. The talented athletes also must work extremely hard to realize their potential.

 

[gsyzf]

I agree that Evgenia's jumps deserve the GOE they get based on what the scoring system prioritizes. I just think the scoring system doesn't reward the quality of the underlying element enough. I almost feel like the additional features should be like extra credit, raising a B element to a B+, not an A+.

Quality depends on both raw talent and hard work. If a well executed element without additional feature gets A+, what should a well executed element with additional features get? A+++?

I think a well executed element without additional feature should only get B+. A well executed element with additional features would get A or A+ Depending on the difficult of the additional features and the number of additional features.

I think evgenia's jumps should get B+. I don't think the system intends to reward her A+. Giving her A+ is a bit too generous even given the rules of the current judging system.

IMO, other bigger jumpers who execute a jump well without additional features should also only get B+, not A+. A+ is reserved for skaters who can execute elements well with additional features.

ETA:

I think the additional features are rewarded in GOE because they actually make the jumps more risky. If jumping bigger makes jumps more risky, then doing steps before jumps and jumping with arm variations also make jumps more risky. People can argue which one is more risky. That's debatable. But I don't think everyone agrees that jumping bigger is more risky than doing difficult steps and jumping with arm variation.

 

[mrrice]

In practice, only the more talented and hard working athletes beat the less talented and hard working athletes. But The more talented but less hard working won't beat the less talented athletes but hard working athletes in most sports. Not all talented athletes perform to their potential. The talented athletes also must work extremely hard to realize their potential.

Completely true. That's the basis of the children's story "The Tortoise And The Hare" I have no proof but, I think Nicole Bobek may have been that way. When she was trained and in shape she was spectacular. However, they were moments where she looked completely disinterested in being on the ice. My Wife Maria B. was said to be skipping practices and lacking effort before she missed the Free Program at Worlds in 1993 costing Russia a spot at the Olympics in 1994. She was promptly dropped by her federation. There is no substitute for hard and smart training. In my opinion, showing up for practice should be priority number 1. There were times when I could tell that my dancers were not in the right frame of mind to deliver a strong rehearsal. I quickly changed plans and we reviewed past performances and discussed how we could improve them in the future.

The team came up with several good ideas and then were excited to see how they'd work. Suddenly, I had a group of excited and empowered young dancers. It's a method I learned from ballet teacher.

 

[TGee]

I think some people just naturally jump bigger than others because they have more muscles in their legs. I don't think bigger jumpers should get more GOE just because they are bigger. These skaters don't necessarily spend more effort or put in more practice than smaller jumpers because they are actually gifted with the explosive power. Skaters who jump smaller also have to put in the effort to jump with added difficulty like arm variations, preceding steps/transitions and back-loading. I would give similar GOE to skaters who can land big jumps well without any additional difficulty features (it's harder to land bigger jumps than smaller jumps) and skaters who jump smaller with additional difficulty features. IMO, only skaters who can land big jumps with with additional difficulty features deserve to get higher GOE than skaters who jump smaller with additional difficulty features. So unless Kaetlyn also jumps like evgenia (i.e. with tanos, preceding steps, backloading), I don't think her jumps should be rewarded more than Evgenia's just because her jumps are bigger.

Have to utterly disagree.

Jumping strength isn't just a matter of muscle mass. Twitch and technique are so much of it.

While twitch may be in part a gift, so are many other advantages of elite skaters. Really it's about the training, and the risks skaters are willing to take in bringing bigger jumps into the competitive environment.

It's also not just a matter of height. Alaine Chartrand is all of 5'1 / 155 cm and has some of the greatest speed, height and distance on her jumps of any. There was a reason she was trying to put the 3A into her FS last year. Her jumps have more in common with Mikhail Kolyada's than most women's, and they face the same control and consistency challenges that come from big clear spiky jumps. Gabby Daleman is also 5'1 /155 cm, also has enormous jumps, and is the first woman to receive across the board 3 GOE on her 3T-3T. Evgenia at about 5'2 /157 cm is 2 cm taller than both Alaine and Gabby. [Kaetlyn Osmond is about 5'5 / 165 cm.]

Or are you meaning visible muscles in female skaters legs and considering them a negative. Not sure that Evgenia's leg muscles will be visibly any smaller than Kaetlyn, Gabby, or Alaine's when she reaches 19 or 20 years old. But it seems to be evident that the Eteri technique, which relies on upper body rotation, is not as successful in mature female bodies.

What many of us would like to see, both for female skaters like Kaetlyn, Gabby and Alaine, or male skaters such as the up and coming young Russians, including Mikhail, is that the IJS reward them for taking the risk of bringing higher quality jumps that take longer to become consistent in competition.

We'd also like to see the ISU insisting on higher quality ice conditions so that the big jumpers aren't having to take hard falls or shorten their preparations to avoid bad patches. No one enjoys splatfests whether in ladies or men's competitions, and the time for denial that ice quality is a factor is done in my view.

I'd like to note that, ironically, Russian method ballet coaches know how to train springy jumps as they do this for male ballet dancers. I know of skaters, male and female, who work specifically with Russian method ballet instructors to get height in jumps along with the other advantages of ballet training.

Another way that skaters are training in jump height is on the trampoline. [It's also a way to train the higher revolution jumps off-ice safely.] If you've watched Olympic level trampoline events, you will know that the best trampoline gymnasts are not tall. 2 time OGM winner Rosie Mcclelland is 157 cm ....or the same height as Evgenia.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Jumping strength isn't just a matter of muscle mass. Twitch and technique are so much of it.

Great point. A lot of very slim skaters have had big jumps: Baiul, Malanina, even Polina T.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The discussion in this thread was on LADIES skating.

If I were you, I wouldn't bring up Men's scoring, as two Canadian men went to Worlds and only one made it to the FS.
At Nationals, the man who placed #2 wasn't deemed good enough to go to Worlds, #3 couldn't earn the required TES, and #4 was sent (see above).

Yeah, and Czisny and Oda had poor World SPs and didn't make the FS at Worlds either. It happens.

And since you're going there... I'd rather Canada have 1 year where one of our men doesn't make the Worlds FS, instead of 7 years where none of our men make the Worlds podium (appropriate stat given you just love using past results, evidently). :sarcasm:

 

[mrrice]

Great point. A lot of very slim skaters have had big jumps: Baiul, Malanina, even Polina T.

Don't forget Kristi Yamaguchi. I don't think she weighed 100lbs when I saw her in 1991. Lu Chen as well. Tiny and thin as a rake...For the Men.....Timothy Goebel and Armin Mahbanoozadeh.....Both of the them were talented but they were soooo thin.

 

[Alex D]

Great point. A lot of very slim skaters have had big jumps: Baiul, Malanina, even Polina T.

Correct. and if I may add,

it also has to do with the physicality of an athlete. Not only do muscles add weight, but they also require more "energy" and our muscles are limited in what they can produce with our daily nutrition. Once a certain threshold has been reached (can be as low as a few seconds), they start burning Oxygen, very visible in our daily run to the tram or subway. If we just run down the stairs, we hardly breath, but if we also have to run across the street, we breath heavily and a sprint from our house will end in a half collapse.

Therefore, muscles can improve our athleticism, but only if the rest of our body is up for that. Less can be more for certain people, like distance runners or to some degree figure skaters and this I believe, plays quite a big role with Evgenia and why she can backload her programs that well.

 

[gsyzf]

Have to utterly disagree.

Jumping strength isn't just a matter of muscle mass. Twitch and technique are so much of it.

Certain body types have certain advantages. On average, You don't see ladies jumping as high and far as men because their bodies are different. The person's height doesn't determine the height of his/her jumps. But his/her body type will impact how he/she jumps. Satoko can't jump high no matter how hard she tries. Some people just can't jump high if they are not gifted jumpers to begin with.

 

[Osmond4gold]

Agree with all your points TGee and how did you get so smart BTW? Brains and Zen, what a combination!

This one issue in particular has bothered me all season, if certain federations are not prepared to provide these athletes with the best conditions for performances in terms of quality and safety, the event should not be given to these countries. Gabby suffered a terrible fall in Paris due to ice quality and the canal that ran through the rink in Marseilles, was not much better.

We'd also like to see the ISU insisting on higher quality ice conditions so that the big jumpers aren't having to take hard falls or shorten their preparations to avoid bad patches. No one enjoys splatfests whether in ladies or men's competitions, and the time for denial that ice quality is a factor is done in my view.

 

[TGee]

Certain body types have certain advantages. On average, You don't see ladies jumping as high and far as men because their bodies are different. The person's height doesn't determine the height of his/her jumps. But his/her body type will impact how he/she jumps. Satoko can't jump high no matter how hard she tries. Some people just can't jump high if they are not gifted jumpers to begin with.

But body type / genetics are issues in almost every individual elite sport. I find it boggling to suggest that we should make skating and exception and lower the standard to be fair to other body types.

Let's take another major sport area: track and field. Althletics Canada doesn't even look at developing athletes until after peak growth and puberty. (Early run, jump and throw programs build physical literacy for a diverse range of sports.). Most track and field medalists are tall, and the women are relatively slim hipped. No one suggests that the expectations of standards be adjusted for those without the successful body type. In fact, the coaches running the programs are totally frank with parents from the outset.

Since skating is an early specialization sport, it can be particularly harsh to realize that a skater isn't going to be able to reach the highest level of achievement once the body matures. But that is a reality for most skaters. And some of those women might have been better advised to keep their options open and skate with a partner from an early age..pairs and ice dance might have been good alternatives.

 

[gsyzf]

But body type / genetics are issues in almost every individual elite sport. I find it boggling to suggest that we should make skating and exception and lower the standard to be fair to other body types.

Because there are other ways for skaters who are not naturally gifted in jumps to show their skills, not just jumping bigger. Some people may think bigger jumps is the standard. But other people think doing difficult steps before jumps or doing more difficult arm variation also sets a high standard. There is no consensus that one is in fact a better standard than another. Skaters who can jump bigger with difficult steps/arm variation/delayed rotation show better skills than someone who only jump big or someone who don't jump big, but jump with arm variation/difficult preceding steps. To me, someone who only jump big but with no additional difficulty features, shows about the same level of skill as someone who don't jump as big, but jump with more difficulty features like arm variation and difficult preceding steps. Both increase the risk of jumps. I don't see either being superior and IMO they should get about the same credit. Some people try to argue the former should get A+ and the latter deserves only B+. But to me, they are both B+ jumps. Neither deserves A or A+. Only skaters who can execute a jump with additional difficult feature well deserved A or A+.

 

[Mathman]

^ I think the current IJS does a pretty good job of rewarding all the different aspects of skating, as you argue for. :yes:

 

[TGee]

Because there are other ways for skaters who are not naturally gifted in jumps to show their skills, not just jumping bigger. Some people may think bigger jumps is the standard. But other people think doing difficult steps before jumps or doing more difficult arm variation also sets a high standard. There is no consensus that one is in fact a better standard than another. Skaters who can jump bigger with difficult steps/arm variation/delayed rotation show better skills than someone who only jump big or someone who don't jump big, but jump with arm variation/difficult preceding steps. To me, someone who only jump big but with no additional difficulty features, shows about the same level of skill as someone who don't jump as big, but jump with more difficulty features like arm variation and difficult preceding steps. Both increase the risk of jumps. I don't see either being superior and IMO they should get about the same credit.

Well, back to the earlier comments....The As should be reserved for the big clean jumps, with precise take off edges and negligible pre-rotations.

Getting some upgrade for difficult entry or arm positions makes sense, but they shouldn't in themselves take a B quality jump up to an A-, let alone an A+. But that is what the current bullet system does since it gives "height and distance" together only one bullet.

I like the idea of having the technical panel level the jumps. It would mean increasing the size of the panels, but would get past the problem of the relatively modest increases in difficulty overwhelming the basic determinants of quality.

Back to Kaetlyn. What I really like about her this season is that she's building up so that she has...

- big clean jumps
- consistency
- complexity
- high performance quality, including a mature, "come hither" unapologetic attractiveness

While every skater needs to maximize her potential under the current system, I totally admire the way she, her coach and her choreographers are demonstrating that it is possible to go for the "whole package."

 

[mrrice]

Speaking of tiny and thin skaters. I was there when Johnny Weir won his Junior World Title defeating Evan way back in 2001. Johnny and Evan were BOTH twigs....Evan eventually filled out but Johnny has always been quite thin. I have never seen Rudy Galindo in person. He looks little even on TV so, I can only imagine how small he is in person.

 

[gsyzf]

Well, back to the earlier comments....The As should be reserved for the big clean jumps, with precise take off edges and negligible pre-rotations.

Getting some upgrade for difficult entry or arm positions makes sense, but they shouldn't in themselves take a B quality jump up to an A-, let alone an A+. But that is what the current bullet system does since it gives "height and distance" together only one bullet.

I would only give As to clean and big jumps with good flow that have no additional features if the jump is really rare and difficult, e.g. 3a in ladies' skating, and difficult quads in men's skating (even in men's skating, only 4lo, 4f and 4lz are rare these days. 4t and 4s are becoming very common). Scores are handed out relative to the field. In ladies' skating, everyone is doing the same triples, 3-3 and 2A. Many are adding all those difficult features to the triples, 3-3 and 2A. Simply being big and clean is not impressive any more in today's field, when you do jumps that everybody does. Only 3a is rare. For regular triples, I would reserve As only for jumps that have height/distance, flow, steps/arm variation/delayed rotation. If i give regular triples with regular set up and no additional features As, what scores should I give to triples that have more difficult set up and additional difficult features that are executed well?

I don't think the system intends to reward B jumps to A or A-. It only intends to raise it to B+. Evgenia got some bonus for being consistent and Russian no.1.

Kaetlyn would get some bonus too if she becomes more consistent and gets Skate canada's support.

 

[TGee]

I would only give As to clean and big jumps with good flow that have no additional features if the jump is really rare and difficult, e.g. 3a in ladies' skating, and difficult quads in men's skating (even in men's skating, only 4lo, 4f and 4lz are rare these days. 4t and 4s are becoming very common). Scores are handed out relative to the field. In ladies' skating, everyone is doing the same triples, 3-3 and 2A. Many are adding all those difficult features to the triples, 3-3 and 2A. Simply being big and clean is not impressive any more in today's field, when you do jumps that everybody does. Only 3a is rare. For regular triples, I would reserve As only for jumps that have height/distance, flow, steps/arm variation/delayed rotation. If i give regular triples with regular set up and no additional features As, what scores should I give to triples that have more difficult set up and additional difficult features that are executed well?

I don't think the system intends to reward B jumps to A or A-. It only intends to raise it to B+. Evgenia got some bonus for being consistent and Russian no.1.

Kaetlyn would get some bonus too if she becomes more consistent and gets Skate canada's support.

And that is where I at least take issue.

The score should be based on what a skater puts out on a day. Not reputation judging.

Donald Jackson, 1962 World Champion and first accredited 3Lz by more than a decade, has commented positively on IJS...

From a an interview in 2013

In my day if you were the champion and you went out and maybe you fell on a jump, well, they’d give you the benefit of the doubt. But now, if the champion falls, that’s too bad. You lose those marks. So the person who comes in for the first time has a chance of being up near the top. You’re not being put in a pigeonhole. In that respect, it’s very very good and more fair for the skaters.

http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-69-donald-jackson/

 

[gsyzf]

And that is where I at least take issue.

The score should be based on what a skater puts out on a day. Not reputation judging.

That's the same issue in all human judging, not just in figure skating judging. Judges' scores are influenced by the performer's reputation and momentum. As long as it's human judging, you will see individuals/organizations try to lobby judges in order to influence the results. Movie studios campaign and lobby in order to win oscars. Even Nobel prize selection has lobbyists.

Every girl is doing almost the same thing today. The difference between top skaters is quite small. So I think the winner will just come down to who is more consistent.