Did Michelle Kwan kill pro skating?

[merrywidow]

I've always blamed the ISU for turning amateur skaters into professionals by giving out cash rewards to the elite skaters. It was done to prevent the best amateurs from turning pro back in the 90's. Consequently, not many left the amateur ranks after the Olympics as formerly had done. And that meant the same pros were competing against one another & appearing in shows together.

 

[janetfan]

I've always blamed the ISU for turning amateur skaters into professionals by giving out cash rewards to the elite skaters. It was done to prevent the best amateurs from turning pro back in the 90's. Consequently, not many left the amateur ranks after the Olympics as formerly had done. And that meant the same pros were competing against one another & appearing in shows together.

That seems to be something no one else pointed out - but that had alot to do with it.

At a point it was never a question of whether Michelle was a professional skater or not - but a matter of who had the most clout and money to keep her in their camp.
In this case it was ISU.

 

[gmyers]

So you are saying Kwan ruined pro skating with her quality but you know Kristi Yamaguchi was no slouch! She did not take it easy. She did a lot triples. But I am more interested in the barely ever skating from Kwan. Sure she was in COI but COI was not SOI and joining SOI would have been much better for pro skating in American if Kwan was with SOI and not COI.

True pro skating it is not only where money is now. GP has money.

 

[Mathman]

Sure she was in COI but COI was not SOI and joining SOI would have been much better for pro skating in American if Kwan was with SOI and not COI.

Michelle could not have skated with SOI and retain Olympic eligibility. Tom Collins paid an annual fee to the USFSA and ISU for their blessing in using eligible skaters on his tour. Scott Hamilton refused to pay such a fee.

 

[fairly4]

NO, michelle didn't kill pro skating.

it started before her with only1) IMG productions picking IMg skaters for the competitions & tours like soi
2) pro skaters skated in 1994 olympics and some backing out of pro-ams due to judging issues which was a laugh considering the
"pro competitions" was rigged and picked the winners ahead of time
3) the U.S. pro skaters backing Jaime and David for the "clean skate" in 2002, and not saying a word regarding michelle,
4) some of the Pros wanting Michelle to turn pro in 1998, and getting mad with her staying in.
5) some of the pros getting mad at michelle making money, yet same said skaters made alot of money themselves and seem to not
want her to get anything.
6) By michelle staying in some of the pros stayed in SOI and blamed her for not turning pro so they couldn't do what they wanted
to do.
7) the list goes on, these are a few of the highlights friends, family and I keep talking about when they bring up thing stuff again.
also i forgot the internet, youtube etc, why go when can watch on youtube but at same time usfsa, isu, should have cashed in by allowing the people to buy some of the shows, tours, competitions way back when-now a bit to late

 

[gmyers]

Michelle could not have skated with SOI and retain Olympic eligibility. Tom Collins paid an annual fee to the USFSA and ISU for their blessing in using eligible skaters on his tour. Scott Hamilton refused to pay such a fee.

That explains a lot of that but why not after COI went out of business. Kwan was very busy with school but what if there was no school - like she could do a Yuna show but never ever SOI? Now SOI is going out of business in all reality and may not have money for Kwan but maybe Kwan could help a little?

 

[Mathman]

... and the judging became even more reputation based than before..

.

Yes, I think that was a big contribution too. That's why they were called "cheesefest".

Actually, I think both the skating and the judging of cheesefests got quite a bit better after the ISU took them over.

One of the ISU's concerns was that people would see these silly "competitions" featuring the men versus the ladies and scored by celebrity judges as being real skating. The new ISU rule was that anyone putting on a cheesefest with "their" skaters had to use certified ISU judges and the official ISU scoring system. There were also rules requiring participation of skaters and judges from several countries, if the event was advertised as "international."

The ones I saw in the early 2000s were excellent competitions. Here are the judges' scores for the 2004 December Marshalls. Far from "reputation" or "crowd favorite" judging, a peppy Irina Slutskaya got first place ordinals over a so-so Michelle from all five ISU judges (JPN, USA, RUS, CAN, FRA). Sasha got third (5.3 for tech, reflecting a fall, 5.6s and 5.7s for presentation).

In the men's, three countries were represented. Plushenko dominated, but Evan Lysacek edged Joubert and Weir for second. This was the first time most of the fans had seen Lysacek, and it was very exciting because Evan went first and laid down a great skate, so the audience was on pins and needles after every ensuing skater to see whether he would overtake Lysacek. Only Plushenko, skating last, did.

OK, the stakes weren't life-and-death. Still...it seems now like the golden age, when audiences could enjoy events like this. (I was there. I counted the live house at about 10,000 - 12,000. )

http://www.usfigureskating.org/even...events/200405/marshallsworldcup/men-final.htm

http://www.usfigureskating.org/even...nts/200405/marshallsworldcup/ladies-final.htm

 

[Tonichelle]

Michelle could not have skated with SOI and retain Olympic eligibility. Tom Collins paid an annual fee to the USFSA and ISU for their blessing in using eligible skaters on his tour. Scott Hamilton refused to pay such a fee.

Hmmmm.... I don't know that he refused, the USFSA saw a conflict of interest is how I remember it - but after COI tanked Scott DID use the eligibles for a couple or so seasons (still does I think?)


and gmyers - it was bound to happy to MM - once Michelle declared her love for another, thus breaking our Dear Mathman's heart it was only a matter of time before he would turn on his beloved Kween.


(and my post quoted above was not about the pro-ams... just some of the cheesier pro competitions)

 

[janetfan]

That explains a lot of that but why not after COI went out of business. Kwan was very busy with school but what if there was no school - like she could do a Yuna show but never ever SOI? Now SOI is going out of business in all reality and may not have money for Kwan but maybe Kwan could help a little?

I think after she had to withdraw from Torino Michelle was done.

She not only had to get healed up but knew the next Olympics was four years away.

Maybe she felt in her heart it was time to move on and go to school full-time.

I was looking for a clip of her press conference from Torino where she announced she was pulling out.....anyone have it?

I haven't seen it for years but seem to remember it was an emotional announcement from Michelle.

Since this is actually a Kwan thread here is a clip with Terry Gannnon talking about Michelle's petition and the selection process for the Torino Olympic team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlL7H198mmQ

 

[Mathman]

Here is Michelle as a pro. She holds the audience in the palm of her hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGmlMmMs4B4&feature=related

 

[Bluebonnet]

I've always blamed the ISU for turning amateur skaters into professionals by giving out cash rewards to the elite skaters. It was done to prevent the best amateurs from turning pro back in the 90's. Consequently, not many left the amateur ranks after the Olympics as formerly had done. And that meant the same pros were competing against one another & appearing in shows together.

But that was a favor that ISU has done for amateur skaters seeing how hard for them to continue skating under financial stress.

 

[Tonichelle]

But that was a favor that ISU has done for amateur skaters seeing how hard for them to continue skating under financial stress.

no, it wasn't. it was to keep skaters in the amatuer side of things... ISU saw $$ going away when the skaters retired after their 4 years on top were up.

 

[Olympia]

I don't know whether this was on purpose on the part of the ISU, but the ending of the boundary between amateur and pro had an element of evening the odds. In countries with subsidized skaters, especially in the days of the Soviet Union, skaters in the U.S.S.R., East Germany, and some other countries were professionals in all but name. Everything was paid for. This is how skaters such as Irina Rodnina, with different partners, and Katarina Witt managed to remain in skating for two or more Olympic cycles while American and Canadian skaters generally retired after just one. I think the average retirement age of an American ladies' singles skater from World War II to the end of the true amateur era was nineteen. They either left skating for a paying job or turned pro so they could earn a living by skating for Ice Capades or Ice Follies. As I say, I don't know whether the ISU would have backed the change of skaters' status for such a reason, but I'm sure the USFSA would have lobbied for it.

 

[janetfan]

no, it wasn't. it was to keep skaters in the amatuer side of things... ISU saw $$ going away when the skaters retired after their 4 years on top were up.

^ That's it.

ISU's goal to monopolize skating wasn't possible without blurring the line between amateur and professional.

To keep skater's from leaving ISU's competitions money was offered to them. The better the skater the more money it was possible to earn while retaining "amateur" status.

 

[blue dog]

I think the ISU should just let everything be OPEN, especially now with the COP. If you are a pro and want to return to compete at Nationals, ISU Championships (Euro, 4CC, GP, and Worlds), or the Olympics, fine! But you must meet the minimum score to compete.

However, back to the original question-- no, but she didn't help the situation. I think the sagging American economy (less people to come to shows), the post-whack boom in skating, and the high expectations on those who did turn pro kind of did pro skating in. When Lipinski turned pro, many of us die hards knew she wasn't gonna go out there and do the 3R/3R each time. However, a lot of non-die hards expected her to complete the tough elements she had used as an amateur. Just as a lot of fans wanted Ilia to do quad after quad when he turned pro, but of course, when he turned pro, he really wanted to explore skating as a mode of expression.

Perhaps competitions like the "medal winners open" will help breathe new life into pro skating. It won't be what we had in the 90's, but it's better than nothing.

 

[skatingfan4ever]

I was just going to start a thread about the state of pro skating today but found this one, so I'll just add to it.

Is professional figure skating dead? Skaters today talk about "retiring" from skating, not "turning pro." Are there really so few pro opportunities or is it just that today's skaters have a different mindset? For example, has amateur skating become so taxing that when their amateur careers are over, skaters can't/don't want to skate anymore? Back in the '90s and even before that, skaters talked about how excited they were to become professional skaters, but now no one asks skaters about "turning pro." I know there are shows, but it's just not the same. You have to be an uber fan of Skater X to even find their show performances. When Tara left competitive skating after the '98 Olympics, it was almost "expected" that she would skate professionally, whereas after 2010, we didn't hear much from Evan skating-wise until he announced his comeback.

I was watching the Skating Family Tribute on NBC yesterday and thought about how much I want to to see Patrick and Dai skate with the pressure off like that. The shows that get on US TV have all of the "older" pro skaters but very few of the current skaters. I just hope that Patrick and Dai do at least some pro skating so I can watch them skate as often as possible. I have no desire to see the majority of the current skaters in shows, but Patrick and Dai are two exceptions. Sadly, I'm not sure if they will get the same opportunities that the older generations did. Michelle deciding not to turn pro was made into a big deal back then, but I don't think it would be made into a big deal with any of today's skaters.

 

[dorispulaski]

We'll know more after the Olympics.

Pro skating is alive & well...just not in the US, with current World & national competitors skating. Champions on Ice is Dead. Stars on Ice is way smaller. And I hesitate to call the Disson shows skating, but they are what we have.

There are, AFAIK, no pro competitions?

The Ice shows in Japan sell out.

There are successful ice shows in Russia. (Averbukh, Plushenko)

The shows Toller Cranston skated in back in the day in Europe, Holiday on Ice, are still going.

There are ice skating acts on cruise ships.

There is Disney on Ice.


After the Olympics, there is usually some kind of Olympians tour; if any Americans do well (and they may not...)
That's the next chance for there to be a resurgence of pro skating in the US, I suspect.

 

[Teenes]

I wrote a really really long article about this back in 2006 talking to a bunch of skaters and skating organizers:
http://www.kurtfiles.com/articles/article.php?id=792&cat=KURT

 

[merrywidow]

I'm curious about ticket prices in various countries. Just as examples are tickets for TEB or Cup of China as expensive in US dollars as tickets for Skate America?

 

[dorispulaski]

Teenes, thanks for the link!

The NRW Trophy tickets in Graz are going for 60 Euros for an all event ticket-however Yu Na Kim, Evgeni Plushenko, & Savchenko & Szolkowy are signed up to skate and the tickets sold out in a day.

One poster complained that they could go to Europeans for 60 Euros...if true, a flight to Europe might be a good investment.