Discussion - Is Sasha's Skating Brittle or Fragile?

[chuckm]

Sasha's positions on the ice are beautiful, but her overall skating isn't in the same category. Even her arch admirer Peggy Fleming has commented that Sasha is so exquisite, and then she makes a mistake and the illusion is spoiled.

Sasha has terrific spins and lovely moves in the field, but her jumps are insecure and her edging isn't as deep and controlled as it should be. It is possible to admire some of a skater's elements and yet not consider her overall skating to be top notch.

 

[nymkfan51]

kyla ... I don't know how you can say something like "we see what the others see in her skating but won't admit it."
First of all ... I LIKE Sasha. So does Lavender. You just seem unable to accept anything other than we worship at her feet. Talk about uber. Geesh!

 

[Dee4707]

I could watch Sasha all day long. One of the things that so impressed me about her is when I had the opportunity to go to Skate Canada and see her practice a couple of times and then skate her SP and LP. When she did her practice SP, Malaguana, it was so powerful, she got an immediate standing ovation. I think we have heard Peggy and Dick talk about leaving it at the practice. I just wonder how many of you have seen any of her practices? I also think that she lets a lot of you down when she isn't perfect and so you make comments about her. I don't care how she skates, I love watching her and others too.

Dee

 

[hockeyfan228]

You can like Shizuka's Ina Bauer, but...um...um...Ok, that was a bad example.

 

[hockeyfan228]

I have never heard or seen Sasha's skating being described as "brittle". She is, after all, one of the most flexible skaters in the world today.

Flexibility and brittleness are not mutually exclusive. The three main criticisms of Cohen are that her edges aren't steady and deep, her jump landings are dodgy, and while she makes beautiful pictures on ice, she doesn't "connect the dots" artistically, which leaves a lot of people cold. Flexibility isn't a characteristic of edging or jump landings -- although it may impact the ability to go deep (where's Rgirl?) or be physically more difficult to attain them -- and doesn't have to impact the in-betweens.

I love Cohen's skating. Do I wish she had deeper, longer edges -- although I think she's improved markedly in the last two years -- and deeper, steadier jump landings? Yes, but that would only make me love her skating more.

But that doesn't mean anyone else has to love her.

 

[bdreampixie]

I don't see Sasha as "fragile" or "brittle" it's just that compared to the other elite ladies her skating is less powerful. She skates with less speed, has smaller jumps, and has less powerful stroking.

I appreciate Sasha's line and positions, but what I love about figure skating is bold stroking and edging, speed, flow, secure movement and musicality and Sasha has none of these things. I find skaters like Julia Sebestyen or Joannie Rochette to be more talented and more enjoyable to watch than Sasha, does that make me blind and "disingenous"? I think it just means, like someone else said, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." We can't all like the same things and agree on everything.

 

[gezando]

kyla ... I don't know how you can say something like "we see what the others see in her skating but won't admit it."

IMO, that is a conclusion based on highly flawed reasoning, and possibly... . oh well I won't go there.


Actually nymkfan, witnessing Kyla’s thoughts and reasoning through this thread is a treat

People were just staying on topic more or less about Cohen’s brittle or fragile or not. Then kyla out of no where had to drag in Michelle Kwan.

“Sasha and Michelle's outstanding qualities transcend the ntipciky as far as I am concerned. So Sasha isn't brittle or fragile or perfect, but she is exquisite, unique and mesmerizing.”

OK. If that is kyla's cup of tea, to drag Michelle Kwan in.


In response to Lavender’s thought that Cohen belongs to a group of skaters who are exquisite, i.e. Cohen does not have the monopoly in this area. Kyla responded as if Lavender had launched a nuclear attack on her darling Cohen. kyla told us
A: “There is absolutely no one in Sasha's league in terms of exquisite positions on the ice.”
And B, “Just because I am a Michelle fan does not mean I shouldn't acknowledge Sasha's truly unique and dazzling gifts.”

So far OK, statement A and B are linked for Kyla, relevant to her.

But kyla’s reasoning (or the lack of reasoning) developed into:

Any Michelle fan who stated non A, i.e. did not agree with her that Cohen is the most special blah blah, then they must be non B, i.e. “ you who just can't quite come to terms with Sasha's specialness because she is Michelle's direct competitor”

How on earth did kyla reached such non sense of a conclusion. And she
only nitpicked Michelle fans who disagreed with her about Cohen.

The most illogical reasoning is “In other words, when there is an elephant in the room, saying it isn't there, doesn't make it so. “

What elephant? Cohen points her toes, and her back is almost as straight and beautiful as Yuka’s. How she presents these assets in a program may translate to art to some, and bathroom break yawn to others. If people are denying that Cohen has good posture, then they are ignoring an elephant. If people don’t find the way she presents her assets as artistic, that is not ignoring an elephant. After all appreciation of art is subjective, kyla may think Cohen is artistic, and I think Sarah Hughes is more artistic. There is no right or wrong in art appreciation .

 

[kyla2]

Gezando

I don't know where to begin, so I won't. But the in the field I work in, your post would be called "flight of ideas" which describes a psychiatric problem. Get over yourself.

 

[kyla2]

Nymkfan51

I like Sasha's skating very much and I appreciate her more and more. When Dick and Peggy praise Sasha's brilliance and then comment on her inconsistency in the next breath, they are simply stating the facts. I have no problem with that. They want to se her deliver a clean program and they are frusturated by her inability to do so. Aren't we all. But if I qualify as an Uber fan it isn't for Sasha, it is for Michelle, who I feel is the greatest skater of all time, hands down without peer.

 

[SkateFan4Life]

I would say that Sasha's skating is fragile - in the sense that her confidence is fragile and she doesn't complete her jumps and/or skate clean programs. If I could give her my advice - for what it's worth - I would encourage her to just go out there and skate. Let muscle memory take over. Stop over-thinking and over-stressing during your programs - just skate.

During the warm-up for the ladies' long program at the 2004 US Nationals, in which Sasha was in first place after the short, Dick Button said, "If Sasha breaks out of her mold and does not skate with fear and/or anger as she usually does, she can win this title." Alas, Sasha made several mistakes and had to settle for another silver medal.

 

[nymkfan51]

kyla, I'm happy you enjoy Sasha. I like her too ... maybe just not at the same level as you. My only problem with what you said was that everyone has the right to feel differently and not be considered out of their minds for doing so. It's a big world and would be quite boring if everyone felt the same way about everything.

 

[kyla2]

Nymkf51

fair enough. I don't have a problem at all with "talking" to someone like you nymkf51. You are level headed and can discuss this issue rationally. You aren't sarcastic either which is makes chatting with you pleasant.

 

[gezando]

Kyla,
You shift from accusing others who disagreed with you as uber Michelle fan to admitting being one??

your post would be called "flight of ideas"

There is no FOI in my post. I was trying to follow your multiple shifts of ideas in this thread

But in the field I work in

You shift from an expert in infectious disease one minute to an expert in diagnostic medicine the next.

which describes a psychiatric problem

In your line of work you make diagnosis of a mental illness by just reading a message??? No MSE? no PE? no neurologic exam? no diagnostic tests?? no imaging studies?? That is the way you practice medicine??

 

[gezando]

it's just that compared to the other elite ladies her skating is less powerful. She skates with less speed, has smaller jumps, and has less powerful stroking.

I wonder if this is relevant to most US skaters. In general US ladies skaters seem to be less powerful, e.g. Sasha, Jenny. Fumie e.g. is slim like Sasha and Jenny but she has powerful strokes, and speed

 

[bdreampixie]

I wonder if this is relevant to most US skaters. In general US ladies skaters seem to be less powerful, e.g. Sasha, Jenny. Fumie e.g. is slim like Sasha and Jenny but she has powerful strokes, and speed

I would say so. At Nats, I realized that the biggest jumps and best speed came from Michelle, which is kind of funny because compared to Shiz and Irina, I would say MK's jumps and speed is average.

I also remember seeing Fumie skate and how fast and flowing her skating was compared to Sasha's and thinking "Wow, Fumie should really be beating her more regularly." I was especially impressed with how fast she spins. Too bad Fumie is so inconsistent.

 

[mzheng]

I would say so. At Nats, I realized that the biggest jumps and best speed came from Michelle, which is kind of funny because compared to Shiz and Irina, I would say MK's jumps and speed is average.
.

That was because Angela was not there.

And I don't think Shiz has any bigger jump compare to Michelle's. They are about the same. Michelle's jumps in her last cheesfest were all looks bigger on TV compare the ones they shown on TV at the worlds. I would guess cheesfest jumps more like what she dose daily in trainning. Hope her jumps becom even big the coming season, since she is trainning in a larger rink.

 

[bdreampixie]

That was because Angela was not there.

And I don't think Shiz has any bigger jump compare to Michelle's. They are about the same. Michelle's jumps in her last cheesfest were all looks bigger on TV compare the ones they shown on TV at the worlds. I would guess cheesfest jumps more like what she dose daily in trainning. Hope her jumps becom even big the coming season, since she is trainning in a larger rink.

Yeah, unfortunately Angela couldn't skate. She was one of the skaters I was really looking forward to seeing. I did see her sitting in the skybox during the ladies event (LP). She clapped for everyone and I saw her giving a standing O to Kimmie and Michelle.

The time that I saw Shiz and MK at the fall cheesefest 03/04 season, Shiz's jumps were higher and had more distance. I didn't see Shiz this season in person, so you might be right. I have noticed the improvement in Michelle's jumps.

 

[mzheng]

The time that I saw Shiz and MK at the fall cheesefest 03/04 season, Shiz's jumps were higher and had more distance. I didn't see Shiz this season in person, so you might be right. I have noticed the improvement in Michelle's jumps.

03/04 season Michelle just started trainning with Rafael. According to MS her jumps are much bigger now compared with what she had when she first came to Rafael....Rafael tape measured the jump distance. But still Angela's is the biggest and most beautyful around the rink...If only she could do some run throughs.

 

[kyla2]

ITA about Angela

MZHeng, I totally agree with you about Angela's jumps, they are the most beautiful. I wish she could pull it all together and realize her full potential, because she has some amazing gifts.

 

[kyla2]

Gezando

Get over yourself, get a life and get lost.