- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
You're making it more difficult than it is. Obviously it would be common sense to think "Oh, well I can't be too harsh on versatility or lack thereof for this young skater."
Discussion on Versatility
- Thread starter eppen
- Start date
You're making it more difficult than it is. Obviously it would be common sense to think "Oh, well I can't be too harsh on versatility or lack thereof for this young skater."
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
so you are suggesting that every judge remembers every style of program that every skater has done every year, in order to assess how versatile one is...
not only it's not realistic but it's also subjective anyways...
i prefer judging what happens on the ice that day.
not only it's not realistic but it's also subjective anyways...
i prefer judging what happens on the ice that day.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
But can they feel it?
Is it even fair to judge based on prior efforts? Are you then in favor of reputation scores because that will always give skaters who are known a chance to gain PCS over relatively new skaters who haven't had the same number of opportunities to show their ""versitility" simply by the number of events they've been in or not been in.
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with it. :think:
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
Well, I guess I'm giving too much credit to the judges to do the right thing.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
common sense and judging figure skating.... i thought you just suggested in other threads that judges were all over the place, yet you suggest that they can use common sense in assigning a versatility level that is pretty hard to measure anyways.
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
In a perfect world. And it's not a suggestion; they are all over the place. Season has barely started, "first" time for open judging and how many whack-job marks have we seen already...
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Versatility in skills is highly prized in the scoring system but there is no value given for style versatility. Each performance is judged on its own unrelated to previous performances. Versatility may be appreciated outside the judging system but it takes time for a skater to mature and to build a repertoire.
When I read the title of the thread, I thought it was because Anna and Luca, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomdSbaITU4 , even the costumes look sooo similar to past programs :disapp:
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
Aren't they placeholder costumes with the GP ones still to come?
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
I don´t know, but if you see several past programs is the same style.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2014
Is 'versatility' even that meant to be analyzed as in it's impact on the scoring? Even if you had done well Chopin, Pagliacci, Samba, Carmina Burana, and throw in a random Tango because why not, for me it's more like a bonus asset that can be endlessly appreciated by skating fans than something to boost your scores. On the other hand, you can do similar types of programs explendly and be loved by the judges and by several fans, while other section might tire of it; but this could be a successful career path resultwise nonetheless. (Ex. P/C at the moment) Most if not all skaters especialize in a certain range of programs and that requires self acknowledge to know when to step out of something you just can't to justice. The issue comes when this is too acentuated or that particular choosen type of music/character isn't fitting while the skater or the choregrapher/coach insists on doing it (Ex. How some people feel or felt about Gracie Gold and C/L) that even the judges can't bother anymore, that's when the versatility's (more like finding you path actually) impact on scoring might exist but not a ponctual factor, more of a recurring trend of underscoring and a fall from grace or a stagnation.
In my opinion, more important is to find the style that suits you and between these a select group of skaters will find a way to incorporate this style into different types of pieces. Of course it indeed includes risk (I mean, how many people thought Yuzuru's PW (first blues/rock piece coming after R&J 1 or Chopin; too classical, right after the opposite PW and Chan's fabulous Elegie would find such overwhelming success? I admit I didn't at first. Actually, how well a skater fits a certain program can severely impact his season, not just in terms of perception and hiding his actual performance abilities but even contribuing to higher chance of tech errors if the skater doesn't feel the match. In short, versatility can be one of the factors that can help skaters to keep being relevant and growing or getting comfortable in their own skin but not a must.
In my opinion, more important is to find the style that suits you and between these a select group of skaters will find a way to incorporate this style into different types of pieces. Of course it indeed includes risk (I mean, how many people thought Yuzuru's PW (first blues/rock piece coming after R&J 1 or Chopin; too classical, right after the opposite PW and Chan's fabulous Elegie would find such overwhelming success? I admit I didn't at first. Actually, how well a skater fits a certain program can severely impact his season, not just in terms of perception and hiding his actual performance abilities but even contribuing to higher chance of tech errors if the skater doesn't feel the match. In short, versatility can be one of the factors that can help skaters to keep being relevant and growing or getting comfortable in their own skin but not a must.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2016
I don't usually visit or post at edge board..but this is quite interesting topic so I share opinion. As first, I don't agree with eppen's some sentences (especially Raf x PW haha), but I respect your view of top skater's versatility. And I also think javi's fun programs are iconic and difficult to copy.
Personally, I reminded Patrick's interview after 15 WC . he said there was no difference or any special things on yuzu and javi's skating compared to previous season which I disagreed. At that thread, there were also some posters who agree his opinion. Yuzu also got criticism before last season's seimei due to dramatic or musical piece choice for lp. I think there is no need to be versatile as a top skater. Challenging new style is just personal level choice matter and only skaters take the consequences themselves. But fans always want to see fav skater's other aspects while appreciating their original strength like actor's filmography.
Unlike ex, there are limited competitions and period as a competitive skater. so I think original thread poster who expect other style from javi is not on negative purpose. I think whoever challange new things(not just element, but style, choreography) deserve respects regardless of rseult.
Personally, I reminded Patrick's interview after 15 WC . he said there was no difference or any special things on yuzu and javi's skating compared to previous season which I disagreed. At that thread, there were also some posters who agree his opinion. Yuzu also got criticism before last season's seimei due to dramatic or musical piece choice for lp. I think there is no need to be versatile as a top skater. Challenging new style is just personal level choice matter and only skaters take the consequences themselves. But fans always want to see fav skater's other aspects while appreciating their original strength like actor's filmography.
Unlike ex, there are limited competitions and period as a competitive skater. so I think original thread poster who expect other style from javi is not on negative purpose. I think whoever challange new things(not just element, but style, choreography) deserve respects regardless of rseult.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
Thanks seimei!!! I agree with you on everything :yes:
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2016
I wanted to say I agree with Violet Bliss here that you have to also consider other skaters' exhibitions if you want to talk about versatility.
Patrick's "Esqualo" is a splendid program, and even his Beatles' EX which is now his SP is different from his usual 'classic' stuff. Shall we also discuss his group programs? "Sound of Silence" was a very emotional piece and Patrick was able to blend his powerful skating with the styles of Jeff Buttle and Elvis Stojko. It was a stunning number.
Versatility is frankly not important for single skaters. It's a great bonus to see some with a vested interest in it, but versatility seems to be valued most in ice dance. Even within a dance you have to have a change of pace. You can't normally be doing one piece of music unless you skate under Marie-France Dubreuil and can conveniently add a drum beat to your music. So if you really pine for versatility and are finding the single skaters are just not floating your boat, watch ice dance.
Patrick's "Esqualo" is a splendid program, and even his Beatles' EX which is now his SP is different from his usual 'classic' stuff. Shall we also discuss his group programs? "Sound of Silence" was a very emotional piece and Patrick was able to blend his powerful skating with the styles of Jeff Buttle and Elvis Stojko. It was a stunning number.
Versatility is frankly not important for single skaters. It's a great bonus to see some with a vested interest in it, but versatility seems to be valued most in ice dance. Even within a dance you have to have a change of pace. You can't normally be doing one piece of music unless you skate under Marie-France Dubreuil and can conveniently add a drum beat to your music. So if you really pine for versatility and are finding the single skaters are just not floating your boat, watch ice dance.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
:clapper:
When criticism or comments are based on proven facts and logical reasoning, that's fine; if it's not, 'personal comments' and 'IMO' are not excuses to vent the hatred to a certain skater and dragging choreographers to the mud pool.
Saying a top skater, who has been developing his career for 6 years involving 4 choreographers with different styles presenting programs in various different genres, origins, themes and arrangements, has been giving all standard performance and no variation in movements, without any logical evidence, it is definitely an offense or at least a very ridiculous comments.
Unless anyone can really prove that, like, the structure, grammar, or anything of Étude in D-sharp minor, Op. 8, No. 12 is very similar to Parisienne Walkways. Alternatively, please show how Nanami Abe's work and at least the layout is anything close to Jeff Buttle's. Lucky enough, I didn't see a lunge in Étude in D-sharp minor, Op 8, No 12.
And I believe, in common sense, those were not Hanyu's work, mainly. Thus we are talking about ability, talent and effort of the choreographers. Please tell me how the comments are not denying the hard work of choreographers if it's pointing out the movements in Étude in D-sharp minor, Op. 8, No. 12 and Parisienne Walkways with no variation.
Do we need to ask the persons (Buttle, Wilson et al in this case) involved every time to determine a comment is an offense or not? So people here can freely say anything negative to the professional without solid, logical, objective evidence just because those professional are not right here in this forum to protest 'please don't breach my hard work and I am angry?'
I don't mean to involve in any fan war, the above is not just for any single specific member, just my thoughts about the whole argument.
I do hope Javier can present something more different but I have never said he is a one-trick pony. He can do something different. He is very good at the light comedies and I enjoy a lot. It's just like Hanyu could never do a super-javi program, I don't expect him to be another Hanyu or Chan or Ten or ... whoever. Comedy is nothing bad or less important to other types of performing style. Charlie Chaplin is anything but shallow. As an audience, I just think seeing more new things is good, while I believe Javier has the huge potential (you know it's not like every person has enough ability to try very different things). Yet I understand skaters have different strategies and preference, if he doesn't want to go too far, that's fine, he's still a pleasure to watch for me.
Nonetheless I also said that I like his challenge last year of Malaguena. I see his eagerness to try but he's just not a person who like big risks. The same to his plan about jumps. In terms of competing, there's nothing wrong with it. In regards to performance, I won't say it's a bad thing to ensure that you can deliver the best thing to the fans too. Some people might not like this but fans don't need to fight back by belittling other skaters and even the choreographers without any logical reasoning.
Saying a top skater, who has been developing his career for 6 years involving 4 choreographers with different styles presenting programs in various different genres, origins, themes and arrangements, has been giving all standard performance and no variation in movements, without any logical evidence, it is definitely an offense or at least a very ridiculous comments.
Unless anyone can really prove that, like, the structure, grammar, or anything of Étude in D-sharp minor, Op. 8, No. 12 is very similar to Parisienne Walkways. Alternatively, please show how Nanami Abe's work and at least the layout is anything close to Jeff Buttle's. Lucky enough, I didn't see a lunge in Étude in D-sharp minor, Op 8, No 12.
And I believe, in common sense, those were not Hanyu's work, mainly. Thus we are talking about ability, talent and effort of the choreographers. Please tell me how the comments are not denying the hard work of choreographers if it's pointing out the movements in Étude in D-sharp minor, Op. 8, No. 12 and Parisienne Walkways with no variation.
Do we need to ask the persons (Buttle, Wilson et al in this case) involved every time to determine a comment is an offense or not? So people here can freely say anything negative to the professional without solid, logical, objective evidence just because those professional are not right here in this forum to protest 'please don't breach my hard work and I am angry?'
I don't mean to involve in any fan war, the above is not just for any single specific member, just my thoughts about the whole argument.
I do hope Javier can present something more different but I have never said he is a one-trick pony. He can do something different. He is very good at the light comedies and I enjoy a lot. It's just like Hanyu could never do a super-javi program, I don't expect him to be another Hanyu or Chan or Ten or ... whoever. Comedy is nothing bad or less important to other types of performing style. Charlie Chaplin is anything but shallow. As an audience, I just think seeing more new things is good, while I believe Javier has the huge potential (you know it's not like every person has enough ability to try very different things). Yet I understand skaters have different strategies and preference, if he doesn't want to go too far, that's fine, he's still a pleasure to watch for me.
Nonetheless I also said that I like his challenge last year of Malaguena. I see his eagerness to try but he's just not a person who like big risks. The same to his plan about jumps. In terms of competing, there's nothing wrong with it. In regards to performance, I won't say it's a bad thing to ensure that you can deliver the best thing to the fans too. Some people might not like this but fans don't need to fight back by belittling other skaters and even the choreographers without any logical reasoning.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2014
IMO it's quite futile to discuss this topic because it all depends on personal preference. Skaters usually skate to music based on their preference. So if you want to say the choreography for that program matches other musics, then it is like saying the choreographer is the one who is not versatile is it not?
I'm a new fan of this sport so I used to think Javi's program is pretty much the same from one to another but as I watch more and more of his program I can see that particular style is his forte and he skate and enjoy the best with those type of program. I watched his past program where he skated Requiem for a Dream and it doesn't suit him at all, from the way his interpretation during that program, I don't think he enjoy doing that style as well, just my observation ofc. So it all come down to personality I guess and there's nothing wrong with that. So basically he is versatile but within his strength spectrum because doing program you did not enjoy for the sake of being versatile does nothing good accepts fulfilling people's expectation.
Same with Hanyu and Chan who all has their own trademark skating style already and they strive at that style. If this trademark considered not versatile in some people's opinion then better don't argue on it and direct the argument by putting down the skaters interpretation such as variation movement just because you don't see it because there is a reason you are not a fan of that skaters is it not?
IMHO these skaters strive best in their own style and they excel at it, I mean we are talking about top skaters of the world, as long as they don't repeat the same song for 5 seasons straight then I don't see any problem in them sticking to the style they enjoyed the most and able to produce memorable programs.
For me in my short experience in this sport, musics program are more of a complement to the skaters skating skill rather than focusing only on the skaters' ability in interpretation, it should comes in package and that's what make them a good skaters. For example you can see a junior skater skated to big music but unable to keep up with the demand nuance of the music despite them liking the song because of their lack of experience and lower skating skill. But then we can have Chan, Javi and Hanyu who are top skaters skated to same music but they are able to carry the nuance of the tempo with their skating skill, thus carrying it on the same level of interpretation demanded by the music.
So versatility can be interpret in many ways, I mean even the genre Jazz has many style like modal jazz, cool jazz, rock jazz, cuban jazz, bebop jazz etc if you get what I mean
Well... that got long...
I'm a new fan of this sport so I used to think Javi's program is pretty much the same from one to another but as I watch more and more of his program I can see that particular style is his forte and he skate and enjoy the best with those type of program. I watched his past program where he skated Requiem for a Dream and it doesn't suit him at all, from the way his interpretation during that program, I don't think he enjoy doing that style as well, just my observation ofc. So it all come down to personality I guess and there's nothing wrong with that. So basically he is versatile but within his strength spectrum because doing program you did not enjoy for the sake of being versatile does nothing good accepts fulfilling people's expectation.
Same with Hanyu and Chan who all has their own trademark skating style already and they strive at that style. If this trademark considered not versatile in some people's opinion then better don't argue on it and direct the argument by putting down the skaters interpretation such as variation movement just because you don't see it because there is a reason you are not a fan of that skaters is it not?
IMHO these skaters strive best in their own style and they excel at it, I mean we are talking about top skaters of the world, as long as they don't repeat the same song for 5 seasons straight then I don't see any problem in them sticking to the style they enjoyed the most and able to produce memorable programs.
For me in my short experience in this sport, musics program are more of a complement to the skaters skating skill rather than focusing only on the skaters' ability in interpretation, it should comes in package and that's what make them a good skaters. For example you can see a junior skater skated to big music but unable to keep up with the demand nuance of the music despite them liking the song because of their lack of experience and lower skating skill. But then we can have Chan, Javi and Hanyu who are top skaters skated to same music but they are able to carry the nuance of the tempo with their skating skill, thus carrying it on the same level of interpretation demanded by the music.
So versatility can be interpret in many ways, I mean even the genre Jazz has many style like modal jazz, cool jazz, rock jazz, cuban jazz, bebop jazz etc if you get what I mean
Well... that got long...
This is sad. I came here expecting to find more Golden Choreographer and Skater greats, and I find a bunch of people being mean. All because one poster, Eppen, did not agree that Javier is a one*trick pony. I agree with Eppen. Javier is far more versatile than his detractors say. I don't care what you Javi detractors believe. But why do you want to spoil things for others?
big time.
Someone here has a reading comprehension problem or oversensitivity issues.
No-one picked on poor eppen because he (she?) said Javier isn't one trick pony (regardless of what they think about this statement). No-one even mentioned Javi in the following posts.
Everybody picked on poor eppen (in the other thread, about choreographer x skater golden match) because of his ridiculous statement over Yuzuru's programs. Different things, you know?
Poor eppen is totally free not to like any of Yuzuru's programs, but to state they are all the same and that PW could be set on Rach and make no difference... Well, poor eppen can state whatever he wants, but if one poster makes a ridiculous statement (Patrick can't use his edges! Yuzuru has no TR in his programs! Javi has no performer skills!), one has also to bear other posters' reaction.
But since you want to drag Javi in this, here you are Guys and Dolls on Chaplin*!
Feel free to think whatever you want about it
https://sendvid.com/17eidyie
*sadly Gattokiller channel, which I used to get music cuts for previous covers, doesn't have Fernandez programs but a couple of them (2012/13, 2013/14 fp and 2011/12 sp. Who knows? Maybe he felt they were all the same anyway)
Last edited:
Similar threads
