Discussion on Versatility

[Sam-Skwantch]

Here you are! Uncut version!

It's so awesome

 

[eppen]

Here you are! Uncut version!

Lys, I think you have just proven my point to the fullest effect. Thank you very much!

An afterthought: and it kind of works despite the song being relatively fast because Seimei was rhythmically pretty similar from start to stop (and so is Let's Go Crazy after the longish intro). He looks a little slow compared to the music, though.

e

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Lys, I think you have just proven my point to the fullest effect. Thank you very much!

e

Is your point that Yuzu is so versitile that even if you change the music his skating easily translates and adapts itself very well. It certainly shows a sense of universal connection of movement. Plus that video.....it's just so fricking awesome!!!

 

[Sydney Rose]

Mr. Fernandez and his team have created a brand/image for him, it is hard to walk away from that. If they want to drastically change his style, they could have done it much earlier. If they do it now, it is brave, but again it does no guarantee that Mr. Fernandez will feel comfortable with a too new style and do it well right away. The coaching team has to consider the risk of being accepted by the judges as well.
I do not say Mr. Fernandez will not change his style, but in my opinion it is logical and it makes sense why his team has been choosing the same style for him for all these years and possibly the next 2 years as well.
Does it worth it to show your possible weakness in skating skills and lack of versatile presentation, while you can still get the same or even higher score with what you are familiar with.
If It were someone in Mr. Fernandez's team, I would recommend him to do the same style as he is doing now.

You nailed it. The type of programs Javi performs do a masterful job at masking his weaker skating skills, making it easier for the judges to overscore them. And then, as seems to be happening with most of the senior skaters, that overscoring is carried on down through the rest of his program components.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

You nailed it. The type of programs Javi performs do a masterful job at masking his weaker skating skills, making it easier for the judges to overscore them. And then, as seems to be happening with most of the senior skaters, that overscoring is carried on down through the rest of his program components.

What what????

 

[Meoima]

From my point of view, love is truly also blind for those who think Hanyu is versatile.

:rofl2: Yes yes, no versatile ability in your book. At least Hanyu has skated to: classical music, Broadway, Funk, R&B, Japanese classical music, synthpop, Russian ballet, Swing, movie soundtracks, late-Romantic period, Romantic period, classical crossover, J-pop, alternative rock, post-punk, US pop, Psychedelic rock, heavy metal, jazz fusion...

XXX is undoubtedly a great athlete with great jumping and spinning skills, but I sincerely think that his performance abilities are not at the same level. He seems committed enough for his themes, but somehow (again, for me) they always feel flat and repetitive. He has a weak upper body with poorly articulating arms - this was particularly evident in his younger days, but he has gotten better with age. He tends to drop his arms and crouch forward especially towards the end of the FS programs (SP not so much). The long second jump secuence usually contains only a litte bit of choreo and expression. His most effective vehicles for expression are step and choreo sequences where he lets rip.

Thank you for your input, I can copy paste this part for all of the skaters I do not connect with.

Skating programmes are usually very similar for every skater and this is because of the way they need to be constructed. They are created to gain maximum points, to hightlight the best parts of the skater and hide their weaknesses - they are after all intended for competitions where everyone tries to beat everyone else. So, the choreograhies reflect the technical and performance skills of the skater more than anything else. Few skating shoreographers (if any in reality?) have distinct styles because of this. They are first and foremost creating patterns that match the skater and not unique pieces of art. In the dance world choreopgraphers set the tone and the dancers do what the choreographers want to do, a classical ballerina probably has to be able to do modern pieces. Plus the skaters have to feel comfortable with the music and costumes to perform more easily under pressure. Everyone has a tendency to want to be on the safe side and that is also part of the reason why we get so much repetition in musical styles and themes.

Not everyone.

The most difficult jumps tend to have fixed approaches which do not get varied a lot,

Let me fix it for you: "The skaters with weaker ability or less daring tend to have fixed approaches which do not get varied a lot."

In their cases, versatily would mean to me...

Yes thank you for your input, again.

Just only now watched the PW on Rachmaninoff and it looks better than the original actually... PW is bluesy piece with a melancholy feel and Hanyu is doing it partly as if it were heavy metal and partly his movement would suit a classical piece better. Neither approach really fits the music in my opinion.

I bet Jeffrey must have been crying now

Let me phrase it short for you: If you feel like you have to bash Yuzuru to make Javi's versatily look better, then nice try, I give you big fail mark.

 

[Marin]

Is your point that Yuzu is so versitile that even if you change the music his skating easily translates and adapts itself very well. It certainly shows a sense of universal connection of movement. Plus it's fricking awesome!!!

Honestly, it is not the kid's fault that he blends in any music like that

 

[ice coverage]

....And, with Moon Dance, he remains the only skater to have danced with a mop! ...

Side note/correction:

Will take this opportunity to put a plug in for the very enjoyable Julian Yee of Malaysia :luv17:, who dances with a mop in his current exhibition program .
I don't remember exactly when I saw it the first time, but he performed it again yesterday for the Nebelhorn gala .

https://youtu.be/th0VyC_KF_k​

 

[eppen]

Is your point that Yuzu is so versitile that even if you change the music his skating easily translates and adapts itself very well. It certainly shows a sense of universal connection of movement. Plus it's fricking awesome!!!

That just shows how in figure skating having no clear connection between music and movement is totally acceptable... And can be regarded as awesome.

e

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

That just shows how in figure skating having no clear connection between music and movement is totally acceptable... And can be regarded as awesome.

e

If you can't connect to the awesomeness of that video then you need a reboot or something

 

[carotide]

Those are some of the basic premises for the programs which inform the outcome. If you watch Yuzu's FS start from previous years you will notice that the pattern he skates is almost identical with the jumps in certain places and the steps directly preceding them just about the same. What happens between can vary and that sets the tone of the piece and are the places where versatility can appear in different kinds of movement for different music styles. I think I was from the start more concerned with stylistic versatility than technical versatility.

E

Here I have to totally agree.
I am so fed up of those spread eagle-quad-spread eagle, that back counter into his 3A combos and rockers and twizzles into triples. Can't he just circle the ice for 10 seconds like all the other guys do? Whenever I see Hanyu doing a spread eagle I already know a quad or a 3A is coming, that's beyond telegraphing!
And from the recent clips of his new free, what's with that ina bauer-3Lz? He already has ina bauer-back counter-3A1Lo3S in the very same program! It's almost like Medvedeva tanoing all her jumps.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Here you are! Uncut version!

I actually enjoy this so much, truly. Definitely more than any of Max Aaron's musical interpretations.

Is your point that Yuzu is so versitile that even if you change the music his skating easily translates and adapts itself very well. It certainly shows a sense of universal connection of movement. Plus it's fricking awesome!!!

I was going to say he is above and beyond any musical confine and definition. But I can go with your characterization. :yes:

 

[Lys]

If you watch Yuzu's FS start from previous years you will notice that the pattern he skates is almost identical with the jumps in certain places and the steps directly preceding them just about the same.
E

Please tell Brian this too, he doesn't need to get tired trying to make Yuzu change entries into his quads when they get too much crazy since they are all the same anyway.

(so can please someone explain to me why Brian was so against that poor circular entry to 4T if it's the same as a straight one? Poor Brian, must be the old age catching up on him)

 

[Meoima]

If you watch Yuzu's FS start from previous years you will notice that the pattern he skates is almost identical with the jumps in certain places and the steps directly preceding them just about the same.

http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/149167361635/yuzuru-hanyu-the-evolution-of-triple-axel

Entry to the triple axel with back outside encounter, perhaps, is the most difficult one can do. But the jump also itself has the good height and a flow with an excellent grouping and a good position in the air, also great position on exit. “Hanyu - Mr.” Triple Axel named him Angelo Dolphini (Italian Eurosport commentator, a former skater, and ISU technical specialist) after the short program at the World championships in 2012.
In the LP of that season Yuzuru started to perform solo triple axel out of spread eagle.

Both triple axels in a free skate of Yuzuru “Notre Dame de Paris” was executed in the second half of the program in combinations. In addition, entries to them have become more difficult: Arabesque spiral- three turn RBO - the RFI Mohawk - chasses LBI / RBO - 3A + 3T; the second combination with a triple Axel 3A + 2T was executed without any preparation - after the three turn he does fast spread turn, mohawk and “Whack” and here he has combo that meets the criteria of “unexpected entry.”

In the Olympic season 2013-2014 Yuzuru and his team made a decision to keep the short program, polishing to its best. Yuzuru performs his favorite jump even better by that time, more confident, even with a touch of light irony. The triple axel in the “PW” looks very impressive great height and a flow! Watching it there is a feeling that the skater does not make any effort while executing it. In the long program both combinations with a triple Axel are in the second half. Yuzuru makes combinations even more difficult, for the combo 3A + 2T, with outside spread eagle LBO / RFO, rolling to counter fast and LBO.

After the tragic events in the Chinese Grand Prix, Yuzuru changes the layout and entries/exits in the short program. Triple axel out of spread eagle moves to the second half of the program, which brings some changes in the program construction. Despite all the changes, the jump is still organically inscribed in the program.
Three turn the RFI - cross RBO / LFI – change of edge – counter LFO - 3A – exit from outside spread eagle

After the Grand Prix Skate Canada Yuzuru adds a second quadruple jump in the short program. This again leads to a changing program construction. entry on the triple axel and exit was changed to: Bauer – three turn LFO-LBI - cross - Chasses - counter LBO-LFO - 3A – change of edge RBO-RBI, counter RBI-RFI. You can watch forever
"All +3 GOE, what an amplitude, such softness, such lines ” © commentators RAI 1 (Italy)

Outside spread eagle ,rocker RFO-RBO, chasses, triple RBO-RFI, mohawk RFI-LBI, Chasse RBO - 3A + 2T;
Outside spread eagle , turning into Bauer on the internal ribs, three turn RFO-RBI, three turn RBI-RFO, three turn RFO-RBI, change of edge RBO - 3A + 1Lo + 3S.
* Exit on euler (half loop) combo is extremely difficult, as is done in a clockwise direction, while the combo itself turns counterclockwise

It is obvious that today Yuzuru Hanyu is the the rare top skater- who performs a triple axels and quadruple jumps (same type jumps) with different entries to them, with difficult and combinational entries. Yes, this increases the risk. But this is the essence of men’s figure skating - to take risks without having fear of mistakes. Combining the beauty of jumps with high quality execution.

 

[JuliettaG]

This whole thread is Each person has his own taste, there is no need to bash Hanyu's style to point out that you prefer Javi's. It's totally understable that you like more Javi's skating but writing that kind of post like the first one, you can't expect people to react well. I do like Javi and I do like Yuzuru, it's not exclusive, each one has his own style and I can enjoy watching both of them.

 

[Fayruza]

So to sum up Eppen's view on Yuzuru: "I find him boring, ergo, he has nil versatility"? How lovely!

 

[Li'Kitsu]

There are some almost standardized comments regardng Javi, the "same FS" is one of them, the "no skating skills" is the second most common one. I just find it funny that people comment on Javi or Cappellini/Lanotte doing the same kind of programmes - happy and funny ones usually - when the opposite (ie skaters doing serious themes year in year out) is much more common...

And funny or serious is the only distinction between styles for you?

There is a lot more to it than that. There are types of music - classic, modern, musical, opera, rock, jazz, pop, HipHop, blues,... and there are other characteristics like fast or slow, solemn or fierce and passionate, reserved or dramatic, euphoric or gentle or languid... just because 2 programs are skated to 'serious' and/or classical music, it doesn't mean they can't have a very different feel, speed and require a different way of movement (and of course, the same goes for 'funny' music).
My personal 'problem' with Javi is what you just mentioned as the classical complaint - his LPs are very, very similar. He's not a one trick pony, but all the experimenting he does is reserved for his SPs. BlackBetty was still in his 'upbeat entertainer' vein, but it was still different from Chaplin or Guys & Dolls. He can pull that off. But with his LPs, it's not just that the music is similar - he flat out goes for the same character all the time. To me, it feels like after the Chaplin LP, they felt like they had found his 'LP fit' and then just tried to stay as close as possible to that. Which is a shame, because I think Javi could go with different styles.

In contrast to that, even if you think it doesn't work for you, Yuzuru IMO pretty clearly tries to broaden his repertoire. He chose music like Seimei, which has hardly been heard in FS at all before, and put in a lot of research to be able to portray it. When it was announced he would skate to Gary Moore, the posts from people complaining how he would never be able to pull that of anyway, because it was way out of his comfort zone, were endless. He chose Prince this season to challenge himself with a very fast paced, rhythmic program. IMO, Yuzuru is pretty clearly showing more versatility than Javi. And you really don't have to like his style and his skating, but why does that have to be tied to thinking some one is versatile or not? I love a lot of skaters who I don't think are all that versatile, and there are skaters who never moved me at all, but who I think are versatile (Jeremy Abbott would be a good example).
It's not like me saying skater A is more versatile than skater B means I automatically like skater A more

 

[Biellmann]

Eppen is actually pointing out everything that is wrong with Fernandez skating. The irony

 

[Winnie_20]

Surely you're all overlooking the single most important thing about this entire topic.

a J-pop crossover style version of Polovetsian Dances

Need this in my life, stat. *off to hunt for video*

 

[Alex D]

Something to consider,

the scoring System favors a certain list of elements and scoring high will most likely put some Limits on skaters too.

And please don't fight, enough fighting already in our world.