Does "level hunting" kill the beauty of figure skating? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Does "level hunting" kill the beauty of figure skating?

Let's play a game. A variation on the OP's question.

If you were King or Queen of the ISU, what is the ONE feature you'd ditch?

Mine is the Biellmann finisher to laybacks.
That windmill thing with their leg at the end of the spin they did last year in singles and pair spins in dance. In pairs, the death spiral variant when woman bends her leg at the knee. But first and foremost, I would put athletes in comfortable yet attractive athletic attire. No more swimsuits on ice for the sake of all that is holy. I just can't with it.
 
Last edited:
He wasn't the first to do it. I remember someone back in olden times. Maybe Timothy Goebel? But, for sure, he is the most memorable recently.

Anyhow, the ISU must have also thought that was cool, and that he rightfully deserved a little score boost for it. But if they offer to him, they must offer to everyone. I suspect we'll be sick of it before the year is up.

I haven't seen a lady do it yet, but I haven't followed the early season women too closely, so perhaps I've missed it.
One of the junior ladies did it this last competition.. can’t remember who but I took note of it at the time. When I have a free moment I’ll go back and search..
 
I like the play:)
Personally, I too would ditch the split position liftings in pair skating, for me they became completely unelegant, disgusting and anti aesthetic..... There are a few other lifting positions that are nice, simple yet complex instead, that I prefer a lot. Here's an examples of them. I don't know the exact name of these liftings, but I always liked them.
(I hope the attached image isn't too big to be loaded)


1522252746_sots-r-3542.jpg
Agree
One pairs lift I particularly detest.. don’t know its official name but I call it the Ironing Board.. it wobbles no matter who does it.. awful
Great topic!
 
Last edited:
If I was queen of the ISU I would force skaters to hold a position for more than a nanosecond. No kicks that are over in a blink, no barely-there spirals, no one-second Ina Bauers. HOLD THAT POSITION! If you can't, mabye don't do it at all.


💯 💯💯

Although I would say that I love a well timed hitch kick, which is by necessity fast. Jason and Andrew T. have been masters at hitch kicks performed to the music and for effect in a program.

A random leg sticking out just to show a leg sticking out is, well, weird.
 
It's a way of lessening the advantage of women with triple axels and quads, much like the introduction of the sequence rule. With less disparity in the tech score by allowing weaker skaters to catch up with spins and sequences, the secondary benefit is that it places much more importance on PCS in differentiating the skaters (maybe that was the primary benefit all along ;)). So the judges have much, much more influence overall results, especially in the women's competition where all these scoring innovations :biggrin: are aimed at.

I mean, look at the Shanghai Trophy. There was a skater in the free skate who could only achieve a program with a base value of 42 or 43 but 67 for PCS. The winner for her great program got 68 for PCS.

It's not exactly professional wrestling. They aren't fixing the results per se, but destroying confidence and motivation by stealth, and doing the opposite to their favourites.

Controversial opinion maybe? I don't know. Just an observation.
 
💯 💯💯

Although I would say that I love a well timed hitch kick, which is by necessity fast. Jason and Andrew T. have been masters at hitch kicks performed to the music and for effect in a program.

A random leg sticking out just to show a leg sticking out is, well, weird.

You're right, but Jason has real power and control behind his kicks. He's not just throwing his leg out randomly, because we just have to have so many transitions.

I was thinking about the random kick epidemic in womens' skating from about 2-3 year ago mostly.

Do you rememeber when Arakawa Shizuka just...lifted her leg straight up and kept it there fore a whole spiral? That takes so much muscle power and balancing.
 
In pairs, the death spiral variant when woman bends her leg at the knee.
Problem - That's not just a position, that's literally the only physically possible mechanic for outside death spirals, so you'd be deleting two types of death spirals, not a position.

At least if I am interpreting your description right, and these are the kinds of positions you are talking about:

vancouver-british-columbia-wenjing-sui-and-cong-han-of-china-skate-in-the-pairs-short-program.jpg
vancouver-british-columbia-wenjing-sui-and-cong-han-of-china-skate-in-the-pairs-free-skate.jpg
 
You're right, but Jason has real power and control behind his kicks. He's not just throwing his leg out randomly, because we just have to have so many transitions.

I was thinking about the random kick epidemic in womens' skating from about 2-3 year ago mostly.

Do you rememeber when Arakawa Shizuka just...lifted her leg straight up and kept it there fore a whole spiral? That takes so much muscle power and balancing.
Karen Magnussen had a "party trick" she'd do as an encore after a gala performance, encouraged by the audience -- build up speed and then do a FO spiral that completely circled the perimeter of the ice surface after one push. No slowing, no wobbling. You wouldn't put that in a program because it took too long, but after seeing that many times, now I tend to view those upanddown blink-and-you-miss-it spirals with some scorn. Cute toddlers doing a little pop up and down backwards kick can get away with that, but it takes strength and balance and control to hold a beautiful position for longer.
 
Karen Magnussen had a "party trick" she'd do as an encore after a gala performance, encouraged by the audience -- build up speed and then do a FO spiral that completely circled the perimeter of the ice surface after one push. No slowing, no wobbling. You wouldn't put that in a program because it took too long, but after seeing that many times, now I tend to view those upanddown blink-and-you-miss-it spirals with some scorn. Cute toddlers doing a little pop up and down backwards kick can get away with that, but it takes strength and balance and control to hold a beautiful position for longer.
I love those kinds of moves.

Brian Boitano famously included spread eagles into his programs, and one of my favorites was his outside spread eagle. It looked like he was laying back on an invisible sheet of plywood... completely straight from head to toe with a wonderful lean-back with real depth of edge, and he held the position for quite a long time. That's worth nothing in a program nowadays. Maybe counts as a position in a choreo sequence, but no real value.
 
If I was queen of the ISU I would force skaters to hold a position for more than a nanosecond. No kicks that are over in a blink, no barely-there spirals, no one-second Ina Bauers. HOLD THAT POSITION! If you can't, mabye don't do it at all.
Oh yes.... hydroblades have been getting shorter and shorter too. And I adore a good long spirally hydroblade, so am sad.

And a good high kick at the end of a great jump is a wonderful way to punctuate and emphasise "see that!" A bad or weak one just looks... "oh".

I would put athletes in comfortable yet attractive athletic attire. No more swimsuits on ice for the sake of all that is holy. I just can't with it.
And I'd go the other way and give extra presentation points for a great costume that fits the theme of the program. Many of the RDs last year and so far (mostly juniors) this year have been jawdroppingly disconnected and let us not talk about the men in all disciplines who fish Grandad's black duds out of the washing basket/run to the op shop and don't even care if the shades of black clash (okay I do talk about this. I do. I know. It's my therapy for seeing them.)
 
Last edited:
But first and foremost, I would put athletes in comfortable yet attractive athletic attire. No more swimsuits on ice for the sake of all that is holy. I just can't with it.
I can't watch when a female skater, whether in singles or with a partner, wears a very short crop top with a lot of torso bared. I'm always convinced that during some move with her arms raised or in a layback position that top is going to ride up under her arms and not come down again. :eek:
 
Problem - That's not just a position, that's literally the only physically possible mechanic for outside death spirals, so you'd be deleting two types of death spirals, not a position.

At least if I am interpreting your description right, and these are the kinds of positions you are talking about:

vancouver-british-columbia-wenjing-sui-and-cong-han-of-china-skate-in-the-pairs-short-program.jpg
vancouver-british-columbia-wenjing-sui-and-cong-han-of-china-skate-in-the-pairs-free-skate.jpg
Well, people said they don't want a lot of lifts that look not particularly pretty to them. These types of death spirals look really ugly to me. I've never seen one like that and liked the look of it. They are just not graceful.
 
Well, people said they don't want a lot of lifts that look not particularly pretty to them. These types of death spirals look really ugly to me. I've never seen one like that and liked the look of it. They are just not graceful.
I'm just saying that goes a bit beyond what other people are saying in this thread - It's more like the equivalent of saying you want to remove the Loop jump or layback spins as a whole for example, because you find it ugly.
A lift position would be more equivalent to a position in a spin for example.
 
I'm just saying that goes a bit beyond what other people are saying in this thread - It's more like the equivalent of saying you want to remove the Loop jump or layback spins as a whole for example, because you find it ugly.
A lift position would be more equivalent to a position in a spin for example.
I guess? I like other death spiral when the line of the body is not interrupted with a weird bend in the leg.
 
What an interesting thread!

I wonder, though, if there is another side to the story of the ISU periodically throwing some points to skaters for trying something that has thernot been done much lately. This year everybody is spinning on their heels. Last year every spin included a catch-foot variatiuon, anoithor time hahds over the head jump positions gathered in the points. Maybe all this serves to keep programs fresh form year to year. What extra little do-dad will be featured next?
 
Last edited:
It's a way of lessening the advantage of women with triple axels and quads, much like the introduction of the sequence rule. With less disparity in the tech score by allowing weaker skaters to catch up with spins and sequences, the secondary benefit is that it places much more importance on PCS in differentiating the skaters (maybe that was the primary benefit all along ;)).
No, I don;t think so. The ISU is not in the business of holding back or pushing forward individual skaters. They are in the business of codifying the scoring system to reflect various features of a suprior skating performance, as opposed to the performance of an exce[tional skater, if you see the difference.

A skater with great quads, fine, she should be (and is) awarded big points for her great quads. A skater who is outstanding in terms of performance values -- hey, good for him. Skaters who excel in blade-to-ice skills -- that's another way to skin a cat. The champion is the person who brings it all.

Or, if nobody brings it ALL, whoever brings the most.
 
Last edited:
I probably shouldn't mention - but will - that if you go back to the years that Patrick rose to the top, and then Yuzuru and Javi (aka the rise of quads though these three had the skills, artistry and beauty as well) people here and elsewhere were complaining that that destroyed the beauty of figure skating (which, err, they didn't, they actually heightened it at their best.) And back further, that IJS itself did. There always seems to be a wobble for a while when things change before someone or someone special comes along to show how to integrate it all into something GOAT-level. That make take a while, but it's pretty sure to happen.

Oh, and...
by allowing weaker skaters to catch up
They're not weaker skaters. They may be lesser jumpers but for a few years now TPTB and a lot of fans have been pretending that all of the quad girls (and yes, some of the men) also had artistry and skating skills and could fill a whole 4 minutes with watchable content, and maybe it's time to admit that not all quads/3As are at all attractively done and not all quad/3A skaters are at all interesting to watch outside the nanoseconds of quads/3As. (Some are, yes. Some skaters do them beautifully.)
 
Last edited:
They're not weaker skaters. They may be lesser jumpers but for a few years now TPTB and a lot of fans have been pretending that all of the quad girls (and yes, some of the men) also had artistry and skating skills and could fill a whole 4 minutes with watchable content, and maybe it's time to admit that not all quads/3As are at all attractively done and not all quad/3A skaters are at all interesting to watch outside the nanoseconds of quads/3As. (Some are, yes. Some skaters do them beautifully.)
Sorry, but this program received the same PCS as absolute peak Kostornaia.

bop.gif
 
Back
Top