Domestic scoring in Russia

[Mathman]

ETA : Just don't like the idea that skating from the past is "less exciting" I remember well when Manley did her LP at Calgary '88 Olympics and landed her big exotic triple Back then, very few women could perform either the flip or the lutz, so to see her land a triple lutz at the Olympic was SUCH AN EXCITING THRILL !!!! ...

Liz Manley saved the ladies event. Both of the favorites flubbed, Debi Thomas had a terrinle outing and Katarina Witt was uninspired and uninspiring. Not only did Manley hit some big jumps, but you gotta love a Calgary cowgirl performing at the Stampede Corral rink (or was it at the Saddledome?)

And the men's event wasn't exactly chopped liver, either.

 

[icewhite]

In theory, people should be asking question how can you have good PCS score without a high base value, instead to 'be shocked' how you can have good PCS with your ability to perform quads, triple-triples and all the other level 4 elements!

Of course you need good basic skills for quads. I think we can agree though that all top level skaters have good basic skating skills. That's why they score above 5 whatever they do - but should they score 9s for that? In that case PCS are superficial and can be done away with.

 

[icewhite]

Scoring is the issue, as well as the propensity of some people to attempt to call others out, shame them for their sense of taste and gaslight them by starting these type of threads.

It was not my intention to turn this thread into what it became and I didn't want to call anyone out by starting it. I admit that some of my remarks were not what they should have been. I'm an emotional person and sometimes that gets into my way. I'm sorry for everything that was condescending or patronizing.

My original intention was an honest discussion about my perception.
This perception was actually an explanation I came up with - maybe it's wrong, but I just tried to make sense of it all.
For weeks I have been reading comments that I did put down to nationalistic bias. In the international threads there is a constant "she/he's robbed" - "there were uncalled underrotations, that PCS score is not deserved" (while those same people would never argue that someone deserved higer PCS just because they had great skating skills), "the judging in international competitions is so abysmal while it is much better in Russia" - and in Russian competition threads every fifth post is about how bad the international competitions are and how great the Russians are - and then I watched the last Russian men's event which was won by Dikidzhi and I saw his score again, saw the reactions in the thread and the Russian reactions I caught from other social media - and I am just flabbergasted and baffled.

This is not about what you or I like!!! I love Semenenko but I still don't think he deserves 9s in PCS. (In general whom I love has not that much to do with who I think deserves high scores. I love many skaters with obvious faults and weaknesses and I will support them and hope for the best for them while not asking for higher scores for them and I think many people feel the same. Lim/Quan are obviously not yet a real top team yet, maybe never will, but I love them to death. Many especially Korean girls or some men with their weepy ballads indeed put me to sleep - but I still acknowledge that this is my taste and I wish for something else, but that does not mean they deserve lower scores.) But he surely deserves them more than Samarin and 1000 times more than Dikidzhi, because Dikidhzi has no program at all and, like I said, very visibly struggles with keeping his balance if he's not jumping - he's not even (at least not yet) a super talent like Trusova, blowing people's minds away, jumping things no one has done before - so how can people be okay with those scores? Sure there are discussions about Malinin and Brown and people prioritize different aspects - but in this case there basically is no discussion at all, while Malinin is a mindblowing PCS GOD compared to Dikidzhi. I can not imagine such a score in an international competition right now being accepted by the community.

I threw it all together and thought - okay, what if what I explained by nationalistic bias is only that in some cases? What if people actually see skaters that way? What if them asking for higher scores for Gubanova or Shaidorov while putting other great skaters down is not just victim's complex (they are skating in Russia/ with Russian coaches, so they robbed them)? What if they are actually so focused on other things than I am? And if they are, where does that come from? Because there are these PCS bullet points, how can they understand the scoring system so differently from me?
Since I saw 95% of those comments coming from people, not necessarily Russians, but speaking Russian, my best bet was that it came from listening to commentary, interviews and reading media in Russian. Maybe I am wrong there - I don't speak Russian at all and rely on glimpses and second hand accounts.

Maybe there is no split in the interpretation of the scoring system and it's simply a mixture of some people having different tastes and some people being super nationalistic after all.
I still think it is eye catching how certain comments come from the same people. I don't just mean "wuzrobbed" (I also do that), but the specific set of arguments and priorities.

 

[el henry]

Scoring is the issue, as well as the propensity of some people to attempt to call others out, shame them for their sense of taste and gaslight them by starting these type of threads.

No one has shamed or gaslighted anyone by starting this thread.

The topic of the thread is interesting, timely, and phrased in a neutral manner to invite all types of response.

Gaslighting and shaming can occur when opinions are presented as facts. Gaslighting and shaming can occur when a poster is attacked, rather than a skater. (Not that I believe skaters should be "attacked").

The OP did neither.

 

[Mariott]

It was not my intention to turn this thread into what it became and I didn't want to call anyone out by starting it. I admit that some of my remarks were not what they should have been. I'm an emotional person and sometimes that gets into my way. I'm sorry for everything that was condescending or patronizing.

My original intention was an honest discussion about my perception.
This perception was actually an explanation I came up with - maybe it's wrong, but I just tried to make sense of it all.
For weeks I have been reading comments that I did put down to nationalistic bias. In the international threads there is a constant "she/he's robbed" - "there were uncalled underrotations, that PCS score is not deserved" (while those same people would never argue that someone deserved higer PCS just because they had great skating skills), "the judging in international competitions is so abysmal while it is much better in Russia" - and in Russian competition threads every fifth post is about how bad the international competitions are and how great the Russians are - and then I watched the last Russian men's event which was won by Dikidzhi and I saw his score again, saw the reactions in the thread and the Russian reactions I caught from other social media - and I am just flabbergasted and baffled.

This is not about what you or I like!!! I love Semenenko but I still don't think he deserves 9s in PCS. (In general whom I love has not that much to do with who I think deserves high scores. I love many skaters with obvious faults and weaknesses and I will support them and hope for the best for them while not asking for higher scores for them and I think many people feel the same. Lim/Quan are obviously not yet a real top team yet, maybe never will, but I love them to death. Many especially Korean girls or some men with their weepy ballads indeed put me to sleep - but I still acknowledge that this is my taste and I wish for something else, but that does not mean they deserve lower scores.) But he surely deserves them more than Samarin and 1000 times more than Dikidzhi, because Dikidhzi has no program at all and, like I said, very visibly struggles with keeping his balance if he's not jumping - he's not even (at least not yet) a super talent like Trusova, blowing people's minds away, jumping things no one has done before - so how can people be okay with those scores? Sure there are discussions about Malinin and Brown and people prioritize different aspects - but in this case there basically is no discussion at all, while Malinin is a mindblowing PCS GOD compared to Dikidzhi. I can not imagine such a score in an international competition right now being accepted by the community.

I threw it all together and thought - okay, what if what I explained by nationalistic bias is only that in some cases? What if people actually see skaters that way? What if them asking for higher scores for Gubanova or Shaidorov while putting other great skaters down is not just victim's complex (they are skating in Russia/ with Russian coaches, so they robbed them)? What if they are actually so focused on other things than I am? And if they are, where does that come from? Because there are these PCS bullet points, how can they understand the scoring system so differently from me?
Since I saw 95% of those comments coming from people, not necessarily Russians, but speaking Russian, my best bet was that it came from listening to commentary, interviews and reading media in Russian. Maybe I am wrong there - I don't speak Russian at all and rely on glimpses and second hand accounts.

This is interesting, let me step in and, as we say, put my five kopeeks in. Since I've been reading Russian comment threads on sports sites, and bloggers' opinions, etc. and have no problem with the language barrier. And what I find there actually looks like this:

Everyone admires Vlad Dikidji's debut, but almost everyone is puzzled by his high scores for the second score. Seriously, I got literally dozens of debriefs, with videos attached, proving how empty and junior program Vlad has (we are talking about FS) and asking how it could get such scores.

As for Semenenko, his components are also considered a bit overrated, and his victory over Gumennik - controversial (there are many holyvars about it). But his advantage as the leader of the national team and entitled to some preferences in the second evaluation, as well as improvements over the past seasons.

The biggest question of the last three weeks is why Samarin gets components above Mozalev, and I'm not kidding, people are seriously freaking out about it.

As for Shaydorov, he is indeed considered somewhat robbed. But he's Kazakh (realistically, he's not Russian, he was born there) representing Kazakhstan, so if it's a "victim complex", Kazakh people's victims apparently? No one seriously thinks the reason is because of Urmanov as a coach. Everyone thinks that the reason is a weak federation.

As for Gubanova, she gets surprisingly little sympathy. If last season many people thought that the judges had prejudices because Nastia is from Russia and the Georgian federation is not very authoritative, this season all you hear is: Nastia, stop whining, get your ass up and work in training, don't complain! And she is considered a weak figure skater in Russia.

This is how the whole picture looks like in Russia. I have no doubt that there are opposing voices, but the trends are as follows.

Understand that we don't have idols, at least not right now. For every enthusiastic cry you will find an equally sincere critical comment, if that's what you wanted to know.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

That's probably true, but I do not think it good or inevitable. What I long for is a scoring system that incorporates different cultural angles on performance and PCS, and judges who are trained accordingly to be able to go beyond the limits of their own cultural background so that e.g. Japanese skaters do not feel forced to comply with the Anglo-Saxon take on "emoting" or "connecting to the audience" to gain points in a manner which is just foreign to their own culture. This cultural favouritism is just so outdated in the world in which diversity, pluralism and respect for differences are the values which matter most.
And, no, I do not think matching PCS with TES is a cultural difference. I think it is just wrong against the current scoring guidelines and simply erroneous judging favouring skaters with big jumps and actually pushing skaters to go for big jumps to maximize points.

But that respecting diversity and incorporate all thise cultiral approaches will likely make the scoring more variable and less consistent. You can't write rules that'll be all things to everyone. Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing or that they shouldn't try. But there are how many countries in the ISU now? Someone's bound to be left out.

I didn't say that matching PCS to TES is entirely a cultural thing. But even TES judging is subjective to a degree and these are people judging the sport. You can train people and tweak the guidlelines all you want but ultimately you can't remove the subjectivity entirely. But at the noment I think it's a bit unfair to complain about scoring as a lot of rules in the sport can be vague... like you can lose GOE between 2 and 4 points for certain or gain points for 'creativity' or 'difficulty'. Judges are people having to juggle a lot of things at once, the scoring can be complicated/ a lot to remember, even if they're trained. They're not machines.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I have already said that the federation (and many fans too) consider the main problem of Russian men to be obviously weak/unstable content, which does not allow them to fight for the podium at international competitions. And this situation has persisted for many years. Therefore, when a skater like Dikidji appears, he immediately receives support at domestic competitions, and they make him into another “new hope.” This does not mean that Russian judges are overly fond of quadruple jumps - rather, they hope that at least this guy can finally achieve something serious, and not become the “new Kolyada”. In this case, of course, it is assumed that the choreography and skating skills will be improved, but for now let this skater feel confident in his abilities.

You can admire Jason Brown or Kolyada for a long time, but it is clear that they will not receive big titles, and therefore there should be other skaters on the team, perhaps not so artistic, not with such soft knees, but capable of competing for first place in the World Championships or Olympics.

 

[4everchan]

The rules are written already and allow for different styles of skating. Judges will be judges : they are human and have their own personal preferences. I don't think it's a question of ethnic background however. I don't think it can be changed by training. My friends and I have different tastes yet we grew up in the same milieu. Not everyone likes rapini. I love it. You get the idea.

 

[reader3]

rapini. I love it.

Ah, love rapini. Try it with olive oil and a bit of garlic.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Well, a little about Gubanova. She certainly gave the judges reasons to lower scores this season. At one stage of the Grand Prix she looked devastated in the free skate, at another stage she failed the short program. But at the same time, her GOE and PCS looked clearly inadequate, as if she was being punished for something. And this is actually not something new - for example, Gubanova’s scores at the Olympics also look underestimated. It seems that this is either really some kind of demonstrative punishment (it is not clear why), or simply taking advantage of the weakness of the Georgian federation.

 

[4everchan]

Gubanova is mentioned often. I suspect that just like fans, some judges do not love her skating. She is a competent jumper (when things are working out for her) but her overall skating is rather weak. (My opinion and I am sure some judges may have a similar one).

 

[Mathman]

Of course you need good basic skills for quads. I think we can agree though that all top level skaters have good basic skating skills. That's why they score above 5 whatever they do - but should they score 9s for that? In that case PCS are superficial and can be done away with.

The ISU is in a trick bag. The IJS must accommodate staters at all levels of competition, including children just learning to skate, adult skaters who take due pride in perfecting their camel spin, etc. If the barest beginner gets a component score of 0.25*, what should we give the very best in the world who compete at senior world championships? Do they deserve a 5.5 because others are even better, or do they dersrve 9.9 be cause they are better than 99.9% of all skaters.

On the other point. yes, it requires strong skating skills to master a quad. It also requires strong skating skills to master intricate choreography or to match movement to musical phrasing. Conversely, if you fall on a quad attempt, your choreography and presentation are down the drain, at least for a few seconds while you pick youself up off ice and try to soldier on.

We cannot be surprised to see a certain amount of correlation in scoring between TES and PCS, or among the three components of PCS. I think it is just the nature of the sport.

____________________________________
* I once saw a senior competition where a pairs team was injured in the warm-up. For the performance they skated out to center ice, bowed in acknowledgement to the audience, then withdrew. All the judges except one just zeroed out the performance, but one judge gave tham a 0.25 in choreography for their bow.

 

[icewhite]

This is interesting, let me step in and, as they say, put my five kopeeks in. Since I've been reading Russian comment threads on sports sites, and bloggers' opinions, etc. and have no problem with the language barrier. And what I find there actually looks like this:

Everyone admires Vlad Dikidji's debut, but almost everyone is puzzled by his high scores for the second score. Seriously, I got literally dozens of debriefs, with videos attached, proving how empty and junior program Vlad has (we are talking about PP) and asking how it could get such scores.

As for Semenenko, his components are also considered a bit overrated, and his victory over Gumennik - controversial (there are many cholivars on this topic). But his advantage as the leader of the national team and entitled to some preferences in the second evaluation, as well as improvements over the past seasons.

The biggest question of the last three weeks is why Samarin gets components above Mozalev, and I'm not kidding, people are seriously freaking out about it.

As for Shaydorov, he is indeed considered somewhat robbed. But he's Kazakh (realistically, he's not Russian, he was born there) representing Kazakhstan, so if it's a "victim complex", Kazakh people's victims apparently? No one seriously thinks the reason is because of Urmanov as a coach. Everyone thinks that the reason is a weak federation.

As for Gubanova, she gets surprisingly little sympathy. If last season many people thought that the judges had prejudices because Nastia is from Russia and the Georgian federation is not very authoritative, this season all you hear is: Nastia, stop whining, get your ass up and work in training, don't complain! And she is considered a weak figure skater in Russia.

This is how the whole picture looks like in Russia. I have no doubt that there are opposing voices, but the trends are as follows.

Understand that we don't have idols, at least not right now. For every enthusiastic cry you will find an equally sincere critical comment, if that's what you wanted to know.

Thank you for these oberservations. I have not come across these irritations and thoughts about scores, but that's likely because I don't read Russian forums and only see what's translated or expressed in English.

 

[Mathman]

This is interesting, let me step in and, as they say, put my five kopeeks in.

Thank you for this post -- in many way the most interesting on this whole thread. (More so than my generic mumblings, for instance. )

 

[icewhite]

I have already said that the federation (and many fans too) consider the main problem of Russian men to be obviously weak/unstable content, which does not allow them to fight for the podium at international competitions. And this situation has persisted for many years. Therefore, when a skater like Dikidji appears, he immediately receives support at domestic competitions, and they make him into another “new hope.” This does not mean that Russian judges are overly fond of quadruple jumps - rather, they hope that at least this guy can finally achieve something serious, and not become the “new Kolyada”. In this case, of course, it is assumed that the choreography and skating skills will be improved, but for now let this skater feel confident in his abilities.

You can admire Jason Brown or Kolyada for a long time, but it is clear that they will not receive big titles, and therefore there should be other skaters on the team, perhaps not so artistic, not with such soft knees, but capable of competing for first place in the World Championships or Olympics.

Okay, that might be a reason for the Russian judges. I don't get that exactly, though. I would much rather watch Kolyada skate with falls and pops than watch most other skaters skate clean, and I think people will (fondly) remember him and his skating for a long time, while most others, even skaters with better results, will be forgotten. The "new Kolyada" sounds like pure praise for me... but apparently many people see that differently.
I also don't think letting a skater feel overconfident about things that he should actually work on is the best way - it can lead to cases like Trusova who obviously still doesn't understand what she could have done to win gold. But okay, if you are right, that's the feds decision.

 

[Mathman]

I also don't think letting a skater feel overconfident about things that he should actually work on is the best way - it can lead to cases like Trusova who obviously still doesn't understand what she could have done to win gold.

What's weird is that the only thing Trusova needed to work on to win the Olympic gold medal was landing that triple Axel in the short program.

She lost overall to Shcherbakova by 4.8 points. By falling in the SP she got only 2.20 points on that element after GOE and fall deduction. If she had landed the 3A (with 0 GOE) she would have got 8 points and (everything else playing out as it did), Trusova wins, Higher PCSs not needed.

It is hard to say what lessons Alexandra carried away form the event, or what other skaters can learn from her experience.

 

[icewhite]

What's weird is that the only thing Trusova needed to work on to win the Olympic gold medal was landing that triple Axel in the short program.

She lost overall to Shcherbakova by 4.8 points. By falling in the SP she got only 2.20 points after GOE and fall deduction. If she had landed the 3A (with 0 GOE) she would have got 8 points and (everything else playing out as it did), Trusova wins, Higher PCSs not needed.

It is hard to say what lessons Alexandra carried away form the event, or what other skaters can learn from her experience.

Well, there are a few things she could have done - including doing a 2A instead of the 3A, jumping her quads clean... But what I mean is simply she had and has flaws - but she doesn't think it matters. She's not the only one, I picked her as an example because we are all familiar with her skating and scores and results. I could have picked quite a few skaters who are just overscored and don't really get what they need to work on even when everyone is telling them. My point was just that I don't think overscoring someone in order to push their confidence tends to work out well for those skaters.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

What's weird is that the only thing Trusova needed to work on to win the Olympic gold medal was landing that triple Axel in the short program.

She lost overall to Shcherbakova by 4.8 points. By falling in the SP she got only 2.20 points on that element after GOE and fall deduction. If she had landed the 3A (with 0 GOE) she would have got 8 points and (everything else playing out as it did), Trusova wins, Higher PCSs not needed.

It is hard to say what lessons Alexandra carried away form the event, or what other skaters can learn from her experience.

I think Sasha had almost no chance of winning gold anyway. Your assumptions are too “mechanical”. You simply give Trusova clean 3A and assume that all other facts would then line up in the same chain as they did in reality. But after a successful 3A, everything could have turned out completely differently. Here are just some branches of possible developments:

1) About the same thing happens to Sasha that recently happened to Amber Glenn - from euphoria after a successful 3A, she disrupts the rest of the short program and loses even more points.
2) Sasha is successful in the short program and takes the lead. Seeing this, Anna pulls out her spare ace from her sleeve - 4Lz instead of 2A in the free program. Don't underestimate Anna - she could have succeeded with this jump.
3) Anna doesn’t change anything in her program, but Sasha, after overexertion in the short program and on the wave of the same euphoria, makes even more serious mistakes than in reality in the free program (maybe even falls a couple of times) and loses.
4) Sasha actually performs her free program the same way as in reality - but the judges give it significantly less PCS points, and she still remains in second place. In my opinion, it is clear that even with 3A she would not have been allowed to break away from her competitors after the short program.

I already said once that the judges at the Olympics, seeing how Sasha fell to 3A and made mistakes in the free program, probably breathed a sigh of relief. This freed them from the need to give her low PCS scores and thereby “humiliate the main revolutionary in women’s single skating.” In the end, they gave Trusova victory in the free program, but “saved the sport from turning into a series of jumps to random music.”

It's funny, but if you look closely at Sasha's Olympic skating, you will notice that she sometimes shows deeper edges than Kaori, but this (how strange!) does not make her skating more artistic.

Everyone can, of course, relate to this story in their own way. I was rooting for Anna and, of course, I was only pleased with this ending. Well, and figure skating was saved after all .

 

[Mathman]

5) Valieva is not charged with any drug violations and skates a lights out free program. Everyone forgets that there ever were skaters named Trusova and Shcherbakova.

Now, as I understand it, (Alexandra is) doing more than okay on the domestic market so maybe she doesn't wonder about what could have been...

I hope she is at peace with herself and with the skating gods that decreed her fate. After all, lots of people doi not have an Olympic gold medal in their pocket and are doing fine without it. Janet Lynn (Nowicki) lost at the 1972 Olympics and went on to become the highest paid woman athlete in the world in 1973.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

5) Valieva is not charged with any drug violations and skates a lights out free program. Everyone forgets that there ever were skaters named Trusova and Shcherbakova.

By the time the individual tournament began, this possibility no longer existed. Even if Kamila had already been found completely innocent, the blow had been dealt, and she clearly would not have been able to recover from it.

But even if we talk about a hypothetical situation in which there is no doping scandal, I am not at all confident in Kamila’s victory. The base value of Trusova's free program was 95.39 points, the base value of Shcherbakova's program with 3 quads was 87.58 points, and the base value of Valieva's program (in the best version) was 86.07 points. Of course, there is also a short program and a triple axel, but all this is quite shaky - a few little mistakes are enough to lose.

At the same time, Kamila’s probability of mistakes consistently increased with each new skate. She reached peak of her shape at the beginning of the last stage of the Grand Prix (Rostelecom Cup), and after that she began a smooth, at first barely noticeable decline. But already at the European Championships, she actually lost to Shcherbakova in the free skate - the judges simply did not dare to accept it. And this despite the fact that Anna then had only one quad. In the team tournament, when there was no talk about doping yet, Kamila again made very serious mistakes, and she also spent a lot of physical and nervous energy on these performances.

All this is controversial, of course. We will now never know how this competition would have ended without the scandal. But I remember a short video that was published shortly before the start of the Olympics. In that video, a “psychological portrait” of Trusova, Shcherbakova and Valieva was compiled, and at the end a forecast was made about which of them had a better chance of winning. And oddly enough, the choice was in favor of Anna. To be honest, I think that psychology is not much different from astrology or alchemy, but the accuracy of this forecast subsequently surprised me.