Domestic scoring in Russia

[Mathman]

Yet... like I said, I am talking about something more decisive/dividing here. And I don't know how a sport can deal with that, when the rules are understood so fundamentally different. But, since nobody else seems to see a big problem there, maybe I'm overestimating the topic.

I personally think that the ISU is doing the best it can at making a tasty soup out of all the weird and wonderful vegatables that it has to work with. Juggling all the aspects of figure skating and at the same time accommodating a smorgasbord of individual opinions and perceptions -- this can't be easy.

One place where I think (I am the asparagus) the ISU could help themselves is to encourage judges to give out more 0 GOEs on the hardest jumps. If you do a quad Lutz that is satisfactory (but not extraordinary) in all respects and does not contain any of the listed errors, that's what 0 GOE should mean. The skater's reward is in the base value -- no need to bump it up by 50% just because it is hard.

A few years ago (2017?) Mikhail Kolyda, in a short program, did the best quad Lutz in the history of the sport.

Quadruple Lutz Mikhail Kolyada

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Two of the judges gave him 0 GOE. This was correct. The rules required that the solo jumpin be preceded by steps. Kolyda's did not fulfill this reauirement and the deduction just balanced the exquisite perfection of the jump itself. (Seven judges gave positive GOE anyway -- I probably would have, too. )

 

[Bluediamonds09]

I do believe that with the Russian importance on their own technique and their insistence on quads, well, they should be OK with not being international. Let the rest of the skating world to do their own thing, and Russia can do their own thing. There is Russian values for the sport and then there is the values of other countries. And with the intensity of public malice against the other skaters increasing with each passing day (the sport is nothing without our girls, our girls are better than everyone, quads are most important) they shouldn't come back to the fold.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I do believe that with the Russian importance on their own technique and their insistence on quads, well, they should be OK with not being international. Let the rest of the skating world to do their own thing, and Russia can do their own thing. There is Russian values for the sport and then there is the values of other countries. And with the intensity of public malice against the other skaters increasing with each passing day (the sport is nothing without our girls, our girls are better than everyone, quads are most important) they shouldn't come back to the fold.

Well, you are the one who is seeing that difference between the 'Russian' skaters and the 'Rest of the world', isn't it? Do I need to answer something logical on that? Or psychological, for that matter?

 

[Mathman]

... (the sport is nothing without our girls, our girls are better than everyone, quads are most important)...

I don't think this is a Russian thing, I think it is a human thing. Everybody gets pumped up for the for the home team.The U.S.A. was not shy about the wonderfulness of having Michelle Kwan AND Tara Lipininski AND Nicole Bobek to send to the 1998 Olympics. (Or for that matter, Kristi Yamaguchi, Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding in 1992.)

 

[ladyjane]

I just don't like jumping contests. The sport is about skating, not jumping. What's that got to do with being Russian or not? By the way, I did not read all what's gone before.

 

[katymay]

I do believe that with the Russian importance on their own technique and their insistence on quads, well, they should be OK with not being international. Let the rest of the skating world to do their own thing, and Russia can do their own thing. There is Russian values for the sport and then there is the values of other countries. And with the intensity of public malice against the other skaters increasing with each passing day (the sport is nothing without our girls, our girls are better than everyone, quads are most important) they shouldn't come back to the fold.

Except even the Russian girls without quads are better than most of the non-Russian skaters. They skate with more speed, have huge speed going into triple jumps, and do triple triples with ease. If they were allowed back this year, and even if all ultra-c's were forbidden, only Kaori would be able to compete.

 

[lariko]

Except even the Russian girls without quads are better than most of the non-Russian skaters. They skate with more speed, have huge speed going into triple jumps, and do triple triples with ease. If they were allowed back this year, and even if all ultra-c's were forbidden, only Kaori would be able to compete.

No soft knees/deep edges, no podium...that's how the ISU rolls now. Knees/edges>>>everything.

 

[Mathman]

Knees/edges>>>everything.

I think a person would have a hard time supporting this counter-intuitive claim. Even the most cursory glance at the ISU scale of values or an event protocol loudly trumpets the primacy of jumps to anyone ionterested in achieving a high score.

 

[Mathman]

Except even the Russian girls without quads are better than most of the non-Russian skaters. They skate with more speed, have huge speed going into triple jumps, and do triple triples with ease. If they were allowed back this year, and even if all ultra-c's were forbidden, only Kaori would be able to compete.

This is true. However, it is not really relevant to the question of whether Russian skaters should be allowed to compete in ISU events. That question is in the hands of forces far beyond the control or influence of any skater. coach, federation official, ISU or IOC functionary, or fan.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I think a person would have a hard time supporting this counter-intuitive claim. Even the most cursory glance at the ISU scale of values or an event protocol loudly trumpets the primacy of jumps to anyone ionterested in achieving a high score.

If we talk about the TES, then you are, of course, right. But there is also the PСS, and here you can drown the most skilled jumper. You see that Malinin, for example, has not yet become a leader. Trusova received more than 100 points TES at the Olympics - so what? Give her 15-20 PCS points - and immediately she becomes an outsider, while enthusiastic judges say that they were able to determine the depth of the edges of Kaori Sakamoto only with the help of an echo sounder.

 

[DancingCactus]

Yeah well, of course the likes of Trusova should be drowned in PCS, since she had only jumps, neither skating skills nor an interest in performance. You can see the differences between her and Kaori in terms of skating skills even if you're half-blind.

If Trusova hadn't fudged the short program, she would have won. So why should they have thrown undeserved PCS at her?

 

[icewhite]

No soft knees/deep edges, no podium...that's how the ISU rolls now. Knees/edges>>>everything.

If we talk about the TES, then you are, of course, right. But there is also the PСS, and here you can drown the most skilled jumper. You see that Malinin, for example, has not yet become a leader. Trusova received more than 100 points TES at the Olympics - so what? Give her 15-20 PCS points - and immediately she becomes an outsider, while enthusiastic judges say that they were able to determine the depth of the edges of Kaori Sakamoto only with the help of an echo sounder.

But that's exactly the kind of comments I am referring to with my original post. They usually come from speakers of Russian - not always! but overall very, very often - despite the fact that Russia has skaters with soft knees, great flow, great musicality, great one foot skating.

My impression is that Russia (the fed, the influential people) found a way to win big competitions in a certain way, and then commentators and pundits and everyone started to talk over and over how this is what is most important in skating while the other aspects are just bigot coping mechanisms of the losers. And after like 20 years people do not just believe this, they are also simply not seeing the other aspects of skating - because they are not trained to look at and recognize them.
The same likely goes for skaters themselves. If your coaches (in singles) never cared about teaching you certain aspects and nuances, but were all about "you need to train your ultra-c all day" and in addition some ballet dancing and such to be "artistic", but never cared to improve your edges or a change of tempo according to the music or such, how are you to value these things? Of course you don't.
Nonetheless some Russian skaters do have these qualities, but many of the top coaches don't care about this because a) it doesn't get you the big points and b) they themselves have already learned from certain coaches.

There are also coaches like that in the US for example or especially, but in the US there seems to be more of a duality or multitude of styles, while in Russia skaters that have the skating skills are appreciated, but ultimately "losers" when they don't get their jumps done and win, while in the US there is huge support for Jason Brown (not from everyone, but just overall huge) no matter if he wins something big.

I think in Russia it's a spiral of valuing winners only and a certain type of skater having the best chance to win in this system, but I can only guess that the way the Russian (skating) public talks about all these things moves this spiral.

 

[lariko]

My impression is that Russia (the fed, the influential people) found a way to win big competitions in a certain way, and then commentators and pundits and everyone started to talk over and over how this is what is most important in skating while the other aspects are just bigot coping mechanisms of the losers. And after like 20 years people do not just believe this, they are also simply not seeing the other aspects of skating - because they are not trained to look at and recognize them.

Maybe I am a Russian speaker, but I am perfectly fluent in English, thank you very much. English is easier for me than Russian, btw. I can't write in Russian and it's so rusty, i don't understand new lingo and i can't express myself in Russian withiut it feeling clumsy and unnatural.

Most of all, I effing resent your implication that I am brainwashed instead of making up my own damn mind.

I listen to Ted far more than any other commentator. Until this year, i didn't listen to Russian commentary at all, because while Grishin is great, TAT and Yagudin are toxic. I love what they did now, with Kolyada and Tran'kov and Tikhonov and Katsalapov. I also loved Medevedeva, despite most Russian fans not taking to her as a commentator. I never listened to Chris which was the English speaking commentary in seniors until Mark came along. Mark is okay, but I prefer Ted.

20 years? What 20 years?

I only started watching skating in 2018. Damn, figure skating was fun back then. Chen ruled with 5 quads and Trusova burst at the scene after Zagitova's gutsy win at the Olympics.

I didn't even watch Russian competitions before pandemic when Russian Cup was the most available, as well as JGP. And that was what I loved when I started watching skating. Chen, Trusova, Uno, gutsiness, quads, drama, feels. I loved it when Samarin was telegraphing his gigantic 4Lz3T and getting over 20 points for it, because it was cool. I am not blind, I know we don't love Samarin for his knees or his musicality. God forbid, no. And how Trusova shook up the stale world of women's skating? Give me that! Give me the next Trusova! Instead, I get spirals and doubles, like it's 1983 again.

What's cool should score cool points. Huge cool points. And it was taken away from me by the revisions to the scoring system.

I loved that far more than Yuma Kagiyama or Satoko Miahara or Jason Brown's style 'perfection'. The are boring. Snoozefest. They had always been boring. With or without the commentary extolling their incredible vurtues in any language. I don't care what edges and knees they have. And when I want to watch edges and knees, there is ice dance for that.

Singles are for the fits of dare do and youthful energy and pairs are for insanity and the best teamwork that gets you something out of this world.

How, just how Malinin's 4A and other jumps don't get the credit they deserve is annoying to me personally, no matter that the commentators sing about how he should fix his something or another I can barely notice or care about when the guy has just landed 4A.

The last quad.

Something nobody else did.

Or some insane combo that's amazing. Like his 3A sequences? Yeaaah! And he gets less for it than a guy with a ratty triple-triple?

Screw that, I am out of here and i am tuning out the commentators' blah-blah-blah.

And I always felt that judging in juniors was more fair, back then and now. And I dislike the way the skating judging is moving toward fudging scores in favor of boring stuff and boring skating. Knees and edges are good to have, but a skater with knees and edges shouldn't have to fall 3 times for a clean guy with slightly lesser knees and edges to have a fighting chance. That's just imbalanced to a crazy degree.

Also, hell yes, I want upbeat and passionate music, with far, far more national variety and time period represenation, not dentist office-like Bolero or 1000th rendition of Ave Maria or Schindler's List.

 

[gkelly]

One person's "cool" is another person's "boring," and vice versa.

Some of that is cultural, some of it is just personal preference.

 

[Mathman]

... I loved it when Samarin was telegraphing his gigantic 4Lz3T and getting over 20 points for it, because it was cool.

What's cool should score cool points. Huge cool points.

I loved that far more than Yuma Kagiyama or Satoko Miahara or Jason Brown's style 'perfection'. The are boring. Snoozefest. They had always been boring.... I don't care what edges and knees they have.

Well, that is just what this thread topic is about. Some people think that huge jumps should get huge points. End of discussion. Other fans and observers also appreciate other aspects of the sport and are not bored to tears by skaters who excel in them.

Different strokes for different folks. Whether this is specifically a Russian thing, this was the thesis presented by Icewhite in the OP, but I do not believe that it has been fully established one way or another here.

Edit: "What gkelly said."

 

[snowed]

Except even the Russian girls without quads are better than most of the non-Russian skaters. They skate with more speed, have huge speed going into triple jumps, and do triple triples with ease.

Except, if you look at the 5 bullet points for positive GEO for jumps, none of it is about speed into jumps, moreover there is a 2 point deduction for telegraphed jumps and the jumps with huge speed into them are usually telegraphed. So a great jump could end with a zero GEO...

 

[snowed]

Well, that is just what this thread topic is about. Some people think that huge jumps should get huge points. End of discussion. Other fans and observers also appreciate other aspects of the sport and are not bored to tears by skaters who excel in them.

Different strokes for different folks. Whether this is specifically a Russian thing, this was the thesis presented by Icewhite in the OP, but I do not believe that it has been fully established one way or another here.

Edit: "What gkelly said."

Fan preference is one thing, the rules of the sport is another. Judging is done following the published rules.
Fans not liking the current rules is one thing, fans claiming that judges is biased and corrupt when they judge using the rules is another...

 

[Mathman]

Trusova received more than 100 points TES at the Olympics - so what?

Wait a minute, now.

Are we talking about the 2022 Olympic ladies long program. Yes, Trusova scored over 100 poimts in TES -- AND WON. Shcherbakova also scored over 100 points is TES -- and finished second.

Shcherbakova did narrow the margin of Trusova's victory a little, by a 4.29 lead in PCSs, but Trusova's 5.39 advantage in TES carried the day.

In the SP Scherbakova edged Trusova in TES 42.87 to 40.12, with both of them overshadowed by the SP winner Valieva with 44.51 Tech rules. I do not see anything in the scoring of this event to feel aggieved about.

 

[lariko]

Different strokes for different folks. Whether this is specifically a Russian thing, this was the thesis presented by Icewhite in the OP, but I do not believe that it has been fully established one way or another here.

Well, I sure don't think commentators have anything to do with it. As for Russian/not Russian, it's not my preference to watch it separately. But, nobody is asking me, so I cope and allocate my limited time to what I like more. Atm, it's Intl ID, M when Malinin competes, and Russian W, M, P in seniors. Juniors, I watch both Russian and Intl.

 

[lariko]

Well, that is just what this thread topic is about. Some people think that huge jumps should get huge points. End of discussion. Other fans and observers also appreciate other aspects of the sport and are not bored to tears by skaters who excel in them.

I appreciate other aspects, and I want huge jumps get huge points. I feel that the jumps are now too underappreciated, compared to how it was pre-pandemic.