Empiric data on speed in figure skating?

[Ares]

We often come across remarks that "XYZ" is slow, "ABC" is faster but does anyone know about actual data of speed / acceleration of different skaters across disciplines? I wonder whether it's available and possible to measure considering different difficult turns, multi-directional skating and patterns that skaters perform. Do you think that impression of speed is often subjective and could be disguised by things like body type / lines that could make skater appear visually faster or slower? Camera angle / work also can influence our view I think.

 

[gkelly]

We often come across remarks that "XYZ" is slow, "ABC" is faster but does anyone know about actual data of speed / acceleration of different skaters across disciplines? I wonder whether it's available and possible to measure considering different difficult turns, multi-directional skating and patterns that skaters perform.

I remember hearing in the 1990s that Tonia Kwiatkowski said she had been clocked at 24 mph going into her lutz, and that speedskaters could exceed 40 mph. So I figured at the time that Grishuk & Platov (known for their speed, and not often slowing down to do things like spins) probably spent a lot of their time close to 30 mph, but I don't have actual data.

It should be possible to measure skaters' speed with instruments like laser guns rinkside (I'm not sure how much skating direction in relation to the instruments would affect the results), or maybe some kind of sensor attached to the skates. Maybe someday it will be possible and cost-effective to measure speed and acceleration and changes in speed throughout the program and incorporate that quantitative data into the scoring somehow. (My guess is it would already be possible in theory but too expensive for general use and would interfere with the competition experience for skaters as well as audiences in some ways.)

Do you think that impression of speed is often subjective and could be disguised by things like body type / lines that could make skater appear visually faster or slower?

Yes, to some degree.

Also, if you have, say, a 20-year-old 140-lb man and a 10-year-old 70-lb girl skating at the same absolute speed, the smaller skater probably has better technique.

But I don't know that those differences can be precisely quantified.

Camera angle / work also can influence our view I think.

Absolutely! There are numerous ways in which camera work can influence/distort the viewers' perception of speed.

Video usually makes everyone looks slower (which is discouraging for us lower level skaters who aren't very fast to begin with when watching ourselves skate), and often minimizes the differences between slow and fast.

I never claim that a skater I watched on video "was" slow or fast. I would just say they "looked" slow or fast to me in that video but defer to people who actually witnessed the performance live and up close.

 

[Mathman]

IIRC Kristi Yamaguchi, racing against her husband, hockey great Bret Hedican, said the she would always lose on the first lap but could catch up and go ahead on the second.

It should be possible to measure skaters' speed with instruments like laser guns rinkside (I'm not sure how much skating direction in relation to the instruments would affect the results)

With just one laser gun, like the simple kind that the police use to catch speeders, the skater has to be coming straight at you. With two or more there is no problem about change of direction but you need a sophisticated system to co-ordinate everything.

For an inexperienced observer like me, standing at rinkside, all elite skaters seem to fly by like the wind. The most poignant experience of speed that I personally ever had was one time Emily Hughes did a triple Lutz coming atraight at me like a runaway freight train.

 

[MiRé]

I think you can also look at the ice coverages. More ice coverage = more speed since time is same and limited for everybody.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Retired Pairs skater Craig Buntin of Canada developed a software that measures and analyzes various aspects of skating.

https://skatecanada.ca/2014/07/craig-buntin-turns-technology-advance-sport/

new-analytics-software-breaks-down-numbers-behind-figure-skating-performances

There is also a "smart" skating blade:

Measuring on ice: Researchers create 'smart' ice skating


Golden Skate discussion

eta VeriSkate doesn't seem to have taken off as there is no follow up news and the Twitter account has been inactive since Oct 2014. What a shame. I remember tracings of step sequences by Chan and Hanyu were shown and discussed here in GS.

 

[synesthesia]

IIRC Kristi Yamaguchi, racing against her husband, hockey great Bret Hedican, said the she would always lose on the first lap but could catch up and go ahead on the second.

In the same vein: Kozuka racing against an ice hockey player.
(Well actually against two, because "Team Hockey" had a slight disadvantage due to their heavier gear ). But a comparable outcome to Kristi and her husband.

Sorry, this is not really contributing to answering Ares' questions.

Do you think that impression of speed is often subjective and could be disguised by things like body type / lines that could make skater appear visually faster or slower?

For an inexperienced observer like me, standing at rinkside, all elite skaters seem to fly by like the wind. The most poignant experience of speed that I personally ever had was one time Emily Hughes did a triple Lutz coning atraight at me like a runaway freight train.

I wouldn't call myself an incredibly experienced observer either, but I do perceive differences in speed when watching skating live. They're definitely easier to detect from a little higher up than standing right next to the boards. And I think that body type does play a role to a certain extent as "heavier" male pair skaters for instance do tend to look a little slower. Imo the differences in single skaters' body types within one discipline usually aren't big enough to have a significant influence on speed-perception though. The bigger factor is probably technique as someone with smooth skating/good flow looks faster.

 

[gkelly]

Now let's have a race between speedskaters, hockey players, and figure skaters, with only backward skating allowed.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Now let's have a race between speedskaters, hockey players, and figure skaters, with only backward skating allowed.

Even going forward, the figure skater might just have an easy win by starting in the inside track and letting the speedskater and hockey player knock each other down early.

 

[mrrice]

I think Elena Liashenko and Fumie Suguri are the fastest skaters I've seen in person. The slowest skaters, although I love both of them were, Jennifer Robinson and Rachael Flatt. With men it's very close. Of those I have seen in person. I still think Todd Eldredge is the fastest. He was definitely the fastest Man at Worlds in 2001 which had Plushy and Yags in attendance. Plushy's still my favorite skater retired skater.... Followed ever so closely by Todd.

 

[TGee]

Watching a competition live, one really gets a sense of the differences in speed. Not just an optical illusion.

In pairs, it is particularly stark. The lower ranked pairs may do many of the same elements, but not only is their GOE lower, they just aren't moving and covering the ice at the same rate.

Likewise in ice dance, the greater speed of the higher ranked senior teams is very visible. Deep edges at speed are very exciting to watch in a way that video just can't capture.

In singles, the skaters who accelerate into their jumps [say the Canadian ladies Kaetlyn, Gabby and Alaine, or Russian Mikhail Kolyada in men] are shockingly fast. And they don't necessarily need cross-cuts to get the speed. Former Canadian champion Joannie Rochette once asserted in a TV advertisement that she could accelerate faster than a race car, and it was doubtless accurate. And you can really see the difference in this type of skater as compared to those who slow down into their jumps.

Thing is while great technique can get the higher level jumps without speed, the height and distance are rarely as good. There's been a fair bit of discussion about how the current scoring system creates a lot of risk for the skaters who take their jumps from speed, and may favour the slower but more complex but perhaps lower risk entries.

The thing is that coaches have different ideas about whether to teach jumps from speed or not, or to emphasize development of skating skills in singles skaters.
-Some push their skaters to jump from speed right from the single jumps, others emphasize control and 'mastering' the next jump as soon as possible.
-Some have their skaters take stroking with the ice dancers, and encourage them to do both dance and singles disciplines for as long as possible, others just want their skaters to focus on freeskate elements and some skills. [Canada had a number of novice and junior competitors at nationals that competed in more than one discipline, which a number of GS folks from other countries who dropped in to watch found very unusual.]

And all of this plays out on what you see on the ice from the lowest levels to the elites.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Even on video, I can always tell there is no speed if a skater is standing and posing. Or when there are a lot of movements within a tiny area on ice, even when it's supposed to be a step sequence.

On the other hand, with a handful of skaters, the board behind becomes a blur and you can follow them from one end to the other end of the rink within a few seconds.

 

[blueberryhill]

Retired Pairs skater Craig Buntin of Canada developed a software that measures and analyzes various aspects of skating.

https://skatecanada.ca/2014/07/craig-buntin-turns-technology-advance-sport/

new-analytics-software-breaks-down-numbers-behind-figure-skating-performances

There is also a "smart" skating blade:

Measuring on ice: Researchers create 'smart' ice skating


Golden Skate discussion

eta VeriSkate doesn't seem to have taken off as there is no follow up news and the Twitter account has been inactive since Oct 2014. What a shame. I remember tracings of step sequences by Chan and Hanyu were shown and discussed here in GS.

When I first became aware of veriskates (late 2014) I was excited by the possibilities and how it could be applied to figure skating. I would do regular internet searches in hopes of finding further progress but after the initial buzz there was nothing.

I believe Craig Buntin has chosen to take this technology into a different direction with the financial backing of billionaire Mark Cuban. They are trying to apply it to professional hockey and now the company is called sportlogiq.

http://sportlogiq.com/2015/07/15/mark-cuban-invests-in-sportlogiq/

 

[humbaba]

I think the speed of figure skaters is difficult to measure because they typically don't travel in a straight line. The curve of a skater's path can be greater when skating on a deep edge. That's why intuitive estimates of speed based on apparent ice coverage can be suspect.

 

[ice coverage]

When I first became aware of veriskates (late 2014) I was excited by the possibilities and how it could be applied to figure skating. I would do regular internet searches in hopes of finding further progress but after the initial buzz there was nothing.

I believe Craig Buntin has chosen to take this technology into a different direction with the financial backing of billionaire Mark Cuban. They are trying to apply it to professional hockey and now the company is called sportlogiq.

http://sportlogiq.com/2015/07/15/mark-cuban-invests-in-sportlogiq/

To be clear:

Craig Buntin already was actively working on the hockey analytics software at the same time that he was actively working on VeriSkate for figure skating.

If a WealthyPatronOfFigureSkating had matched Cuban with a million-dollar investment -- but for VeriSkate instead -- perhaps VeriSkate would have had a very different trajectory and would be thriving today.

(Regarding the question of speed and figure skaters:
IIRC, past GS posts (from me and others) gave speeds from VeriSkate for Patrick Chan, Max Aaron, Kevin Reynolds, and Mao Asada, for example.)

 

[karne]

Even going forward, the figure skater might just have an easy win by starting in the inside track and letting the speedskater and hockey player knock each other down early.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with engaging the Bradbury Principle.

 

[Miller]

Gracie Gold at recent US Championships does her opening Lutz combination in a straight line straight down the middle of the rink. It takes her 8 seconds to get from the far corner to doing her jump. Given that a NHL ice hockey rink is 200 ft/61 m long, I calculate that her average speed is 17 m.p.h. (27 k.p.h) for the entire manoeuvre and she's fair motoring by the look of it. She does take off before the boards, but also has to get to the middle of the rink before doing her final approach so I would say they cancel each other out in terms of distance, so 17 m.p.h. seems a fair estimate of how quick lady skaters go at least. Whether there's any men do a long straight approach, I can't remember, but a similar approach would give a rough speed as to how fast they go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAKvQtHKX1w

 

[OS]

One thing I have to say, I have always appreciated about Canadian skaters, especially the ladies is they always appears fast and fluid than everyone else from the field. I wonder if that's because they are trained differently in SS. (Not Nam though..)

Usain Bolt's max speed is 27+ Mph, I am curious the fastest speed our skaters get up to while have to launch into a massive jump like 3A or even quads. That could be an excellent viral campaign for the sport...

Faster than Bolt! :shocked:

Can Usain do that?

 

[Ares]

I think you can also look at the ice coverages. More ice coverage = more speed since time is same and limited for everybody.

Well you'd have to deduct time spent on posing and slower parts of the program to be more objective about their speed. I think it could be more about ability to gain speed out of nowhere (like Virtue / Moir) or pace of acceleration that give you impression of speed.

 

[TGee]

One thing I have to say, I have always appreciated about Canadian skaters, especially the ladies is they always appears fast and fluid than everyone else from the field. I wonder if that's because they are trained differently in SS. (Not Nam though..)

Not sure if Canadians train differently in general, but from what I see and hear I can say that Skate Canada puts a great deal of emphasis on skating skills at every level. Most young singles and pairs skaters complete all the dance tests up to the senior silver level even if they don't compete in dance.

Toronto Cricket has Tracy Wilson work with all its freeskaters on skating skills, including edges, efficiency and power. Lubov Ilyshechkina has commented in interviews that she was surprised to find herself working on her cross-cut technique at Cricket given that she's skated for more than 20 years and has coached herself.

And more recently, there is a fairly widespread trend for singles and pairs skaters to do stroking classes with the ice dancers depending on where they train. Séguin/Bilodeau go to the Montreal International Ice Dance Academy on Fridays, and train with Virtue/Moir, Papadakis/Cizeron and the other dancers there.

Regarding Nam, I will note [as I have on the 'State of Canadian Figure Skating' thread], that there seems to be a different school of thought at play in British Columbia, particularly at the Champs International training centre in the Vancouver area. Nam started out with Joanne MacLeod, the head freeskate coach at Champs [as it is now called], and seems to share the issues of weaker SS, slowing down into jumps, and lower quality program components that seem to be dogging many of the great jumpers coming out of that program [e.g. Kevin Reynolds]. What's noticeable about the Champs skaters, especially Kevin, is that their jump technique enables them to pull high level jumps and jump combos seemingly out of nowhere [very cool], but they aren't doing it at speed., and it seems to raise the question whether that has been sacrificed.

Nam's case is giving many of us a lot of thought because he moved to Cricket in his early teens [and until recently], and despite all his time with the skating skills experts at Cricket, he still seems to lag in speed, especially going into jumps.

A number of us are increasingly convinced that high quality skating skills, including edge quality and speed, as well as the integration of high and variable speed into freeskate elements, are something that need to be laid down in the early years of development. We see the difference in outcomes from the different schools of thought, and aren't buying the 'they can get that later when they mature artistically' argument at this point. The ones who have have had their skating skills pushed from the start get ahead and stay ahead.

 

[blueberryhill]

Not sure if Canadians train differently in general, but what I see and hear I can say that Skate Canada puts a great deal of emphasis on skating skills at every level. Most young singles and pairs skaters complete all the dance tests up to the senior silver level even if they don't compete in dance.

Tgee, I agree with your post. I was at the 2017 Cdn Nats and I sat through the ENTIRE senior men's practice, sp and lp. When I came on gs and read the comments posted here they were so negative and essentially called it a splatfest. While I will not disagree with that I actually found many redeeming qualities in the senior mens because I saw the emphasis on basic skating skills. There were very few empty programs and I really enjoyed watching it.

I also agree with the assessment of Nam and Kevin. It was so apparent in the practice session. When the skaters are not in costume and if you really focus on what they're doing on the ice their shortcomings are easily seen. I also see this with Sarah Tamura who is another Mccleod student and I am hoping that they will address this.