Entering the Nebelhorn qualifying process: how to determine which athletes will go.

[ladyjane]

This is a thread, not about Olympic qualification, but about how countries will determine who to send to the Nebelhorn Trophy 2021 in September to try and get that Olympic qualification. In most countries there will generally also be a process with one or more competition(s) after that, in determining who actually will go to the Olympics, as at Nebelhorn a skater (or a couple) can only qualify a spot for the country concerned.

I was triggered by the following article: https://www.gmanetwork.com/news/spo...ing-for-lone-slot-to-olympic-qualifier/story/ in which it is explained how The Philippines will decide which man may go to Nebelhorn. The've got 3 candidates.

But I'm sure that in many other countries there will also be an event and/or trial to decide who can go to Nebelhorn and try to get the Olympic qualification. Or, as in the case of Russia and the US, which man to send to Nebelhorn to get that 3rd spot, or as in the case of Canada, France, and South Korea which man will go to get that 2nd spot. The same applies for women, pairs and Ice Dance, although there are no countries in ID who can send candidates for a 3rd spot. .

I am looking forward to seeing/reading more about this.

 

[mrrice]

This is a thread, not about Olympic qualification, but about how countries will determine who to send to the Nebelhorn Trophy 2021 in September to try and get that Olympic qualification. In most countries there will generally also be a process with one or more competition(s) after that, in determining who actually will go to the Olympics, as at Nebelhorn a skater (or a couple) can only qualify a spot for the country concerned.

I was triggered by the following article: https://www.gmanetwork.com/news/spo...ing-for-lone-slot-to-olympic-qualifier/story/ in which it is explained how The Philippines will decide which man may go to Nebelhorn. The've got 3 candidates.

But I'm sure that in many other countries there will also be an event and/or trial to decide who can go to Nebelhorn and try to get the Olympic qualification. Or, as in the case of Russia and the US, which man to send to Nebelhorn to get that 3rd spot, or as in the case of Canada, France, and South Korea which man will go to get that 2nd spot. The same applies for women, pairs and Ice Dance, although there are no countries in ID who can send candidates for a 3rd spot. .

I am looking forward to seeing/reading more about this.

I truly hope the US sends Amber to this event. If the reason they didn't select her for Worlds is her lack of International Competition, this would be perfect event for her. I'm on the fence about sending Gracie. My heart is still with her but, my brain says give it to someone with more promise.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

I'm on the fence about sending Gracie. My heart is still with her but, my brain says give it to someone with more promise.

Sending Gracie would probably be great for her confidence, showing that the fed have faith in her etc, however, it would be very risky, as there's several women likely to compete at Nebelhorn with significantly higher PBs. Also, I'm not sure how she'd respond to that pressure (I don't mean that in a negative way, just that trying to win a spot for your country has got to be huge pressure).

Kurakova has an SB of 201. 47, Paganini and Safonova both have SBs in the 192s, Gutmann has a 178.12. There's also some promising juniors (such as Shabotova from Ukraine) who could challenge for a spot. In comparison, Gracie's best score that I could find is 173.45 (from 2020 Eastern Sectionals).

I think the US fed will go with a more secure bet (probably Alysa, or maybe Amber). Hopefully, if Gracie wants one, they can assign her to a different international comp.

 

[el henry]

The US Fed could send Gracie, but not as the "designated qualifier". I agree, using her to qualify for the Oly spots would be too risky, as many women skaters have scored above her. And of course in the men, the decision appears to be between Vincent and Yaro. Or maybe Tomoki?

But the US has not set forth its criteria, unlike the Phillipine fed (and I found that article very interesting, thank you). So it is a guessing game

 

[RatedPG]

How is Gracie even in this discussion? There are at least 12 American Ladies skating better than her this year. Personally, I would send Alysa Liu, followed by Amber and then Mariah. They need to lock down the third spot that Karen and Bradie worked so hard to earn from World Champs.

 

[karne]

The US Fed could send Gracie, but not as the "designated qualifier".

Which they cannot do. They will be restricted to one entry, the same as everyoe else.

I want to see Gracie do well too, but she should not be anywhere near Nebelhorn when there's an actual spot on the line.

 

[ladyjane]

Is there a competition, trial or anything to determine who will go there? Yes, the US needs to lock down the third spot - but who will do it, and how is it determined. @el henry made clear there are no criteria as yet for the men. Neither are there for the women (as fas as I know). I would love to see Gracie doing it, but there are others who perhaps could do a better job in Oberstdorf. That's what counts. Personally I think both Amber and Mariah could do it, as could Alysia. But how will it be decided? The same applies to Canada. Who is going to be sent, Roman or Nam, and how is it to be determined?

So, do the Swiss have criteria or is at a given that for the women Alexia Paganini will go? Really interested in what or who decides who will go when there is more than one candidate. Australia is a country that has had a lot of success at Nebelhorn in 2009 and 2013 - do they have enough skaters to need a process or not?

How about in the Pairs? There is a possibility for a third pairs spot for the Chinese. How are they going to decide? We already know the Japanese Federation has stated they will not send a pair. What about the Dutch (my own country)? I haven't heard a thing yet, and we've got both 2 pairs and 2 Ice Dance couples who could have a go. I would welcome any remakrs/comments from someone who knows more than I do.

Or the Italians in Ice Dance?

And then we see the Philippines having a procedure, why not others? After all it's only one and a half month to go.....we should get to know quite soon who will go for those (extra) spots!

 

[TontoK]

I truly hope the US sends Amber to this event. If the reason they didn't select her for Worlds is her lack of International Competition, this would be perfect event for her. I'm on the fence about sending Gracie. My heart is still with her but, my brain says give it to someone with more promise.

One thing I'm worried about. The thinking that kept Amber off the team is the same kind of thinking that Nebelhorn could impact down the road in the event of a close call for team selection.

"Skater X is the one who earned that extra spot at Nebelhorn, so it's only right that Skater X be the one named to the team. Skater Y didn't even go to Nebelhorn"

 

[mrrice]

How is Gracie even in this discussion? There are at least 12 American Ladies skating better than her this year. Personally, I would send Alysa Liu, followed by Amber and then Mariah. They need to lock down the third spot that Karen and Bradie worked so hard to earn from World Champs.

This is what I was trying to say. At this point, I can think of some younger skaters who have really proven they have the goods to contend. I want this so much for Gracie but, I don't think it will happen for her.

 

[ladyjane]

One thing I'm worried about. The thinking that kept Amber off the team is the same kind of thinking that Nebelhorn could impact down the road in the event of a close call for team selection.

"Skater X is the one who earned that extra spot at Nebelhorn, so it's only right that Skater X be the one named to the team. Skater Y didn't even go to Nebelhorn"

You are absolutely right. This can happen.

It happens often enough the other way round though: skater x (or in the case of pairs/ID: couple consisting of skaters x and y) gets the qualification for his/her country, and then doesn't qualify internally (in his/her own country).

Both are possible.

 

[Sjs5572]

One thing I'm worried about. The thinking that kept Amber off the team is the same kind of thinking that Nebelhorn could impact down the road in the event of a close call for team selection.

"Skater X is the one who earned that extra spot at Nebelhorn, so it's only right that Skater X be the one named to the team. Skater Y didn't even go to Nebelhorn"

Well, Amber needs to enter Cranberry (if she hasn't already), along with Alysa and Mariah. From what I understand, Cranberry Cup is being used to determine Nebelhorn entry.

 

[TontoK]

Well, Amber needs to enter Cranberry (if she hasn't already), along with Alysa and Mariah. From what I understand, Cranberry Cup is being used to determine Nebelhorn entry.

This is an acceptable solution. A trails situation, with the winner having right of first refusal.

It looks like Cranberry's entry list includes all the possible contenders, including the three that you mention.

 

[el henry]

Which they cannot do. They will be restricted to one entry, the same as everyoe else.

I want to see Gracie do well too, but she should not be anywhere near Nebelhorn when there's an actual spot on the line.

You are right, I keep forgetting the one entry rule. Brain freeze.

 

[el henry]

You are absolutely right. This can happen.

It happens often enough the other way round though: skater x (or in the case of pairs/ID: couple consisting of skaters x and y) gets the qualification for his/her country, and then doesn't qualify internally (in his/her own country).

Both are possible.

Quite true. Jason helped earn a third spot for the US at Worlds 2017. He was not on the Olympic team in 2018.

It happens

 

[ladyjane]

I think for the US, the Cranberry competition will really be important on this score. All the men candidates will be there - from Vincent Zhou to Tomoki Hiwatashi and Yaroslav Paniot. The only man not there is Andrew Torgashev (what a pity). But exciting all the same! And the women's competition should be determinant as well. The women mentioned in various threads are all there.

Any news on Canada? Which young man will try to get that second spot?

For Israel it seems clear Daniel and Alexei are in for a fight (but in their case the results might help in getting National qualification - although there are many more competitions to determine that as well as other skaters -as Israel has already got a spot).

 

[Andrea82]

. Australia is a country that has had a lot of success at Nebelhorn in 2009 and 2013 - do they have enough skaters to need a process or not?

ISA (Ice Skating Australia) board has already approved Brenda Kerry and Kailani Craine's requests to be entered at Nebelhorn. They were the only skaters putting themselves forward.
For Pairs and Ice Dance they have 2 requests each:
Pair: Hektor G Moore & Anastasia Golubeva, Campbell Young & Lachlan Lewar
ID: Chantelle Kerry & Andrew Dodds, Holly Harris & Jason Chan.

In these cases, the final entry will be determined according to this rule:

5.2 ISA will rank athletes for selection to the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, based on the combined total of their two highest TES scores earned during the period from 1.1.21 up until the closing date of entries to the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, at two ISU Championship and/or ISU International Competitions. .... The Short Program/Rhythm Dance and Free Program/Free Dance technical element scores must be earned at the same two events.
5.3 For the TES scores in 5.2 to be eligible to be used in this ranking, the ISU Championships and/or ISU International Competitions must have had no less than 6 competitors complete the event in the athlete(s) division.
5.4 If, due to a lack of International Events being available during the period from 1.1.21 to the closing date of the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition entries, then ISA will rank athletes based on the athletes two best total TES scores earned at two ISU Championship and ISU International Competitions during the period 1.1.20 – closing date of the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition.
5.5 Pair Skating – ISA will rank athletes, in this division, using scores earned at Australian Benchmark designated events, ISU Championship and ISU International Competitions during the period 1.1.21 to the closing date of the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition. The ranking will be determined by combining the highest two total TES scores earned at two events during the period. In each case, both the short program and free skating technical element scores must be earned at the same event.

Source: https://bddb0f3c-5b25-4fd8-b64c-5ae...d/c8a548_4a8500b199cb4ab68e1bd680ff8cc845.pdf

 

[ladyjane]

Thank you @Andrea82 . Very clear!

 

[MCsAngel2]

Well, Amber needs to enter Cranberry (if she hasn't already), along with Alysa and Mariah. From what I understand, Cranberry Cup is being used to determine Nebelhorn entry.

All three of these women are competing at Cranberry.

 

[Laid-Back Enthusiast]

I think for the US, the Cranberry competition will really be important on this score. All the men candidates will be there - from Vincent Zhou to Tomoki Hiwatashi and Yaroslav Paniot. The only man not there is Andrew Torgashev (what a pity). But exciting all the same! And the women's competition should be determinant as well. The women mentioned in various threads are all there.

Any news on Canada? Which young man will try to get that second spot?

For Israel it seems clear Daniel and Alexei are in for a fight (but in their case it's more of the National qualification as Israel has already got a spot).

I don't understand what you mean by national qualification regarding the Israelis, but I wouldn't count out Mark Gorodnitsky, he trains in Canada and was supposed to debut his senior career at Skate Canada and also defeated both Samohin and Bychenko at the Israeli Championships 2019. But back to Nebelhorn, I'm most curious if Austria has someone to send to try to get a second spot in the women's category that Olga so fabulously opened up. Maybe Sophia Schaller or Stefanie Pesendorfer?

 

[ladyjane]

Thanks for the correction @Laid-Back Enthusiast ! I had forgotten about Gorodnitsky. My point was that Israel has not the need to enter the Nebelhorn process, as they have already qualified one men's spot for the Olympics. I presumed that any result at Cranberry might count regarding National Qualification, but there's many more competitions that could count there - and of course the Nationals! I have edited the original post somewhat to take that into account.