Figure Skating's Three Jumping Errors and Penalties

[Tinymavy15]

I kept thinking about this and I realize that the problem does not really lie with the system, but with the skaters. As years pass, skaters who grew up learning how to do inside edge sit spins and belimans that cater to the new system will also be well rehrearsed in landing jumps with good technique. ISU want the champions of the furture to the best skaters possible, and if that means that the current skaters must have hardships, so it be. If the ISU back down now, and removes theses penalties, skaters will keep doing bad technique.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I kept thinking about this and I realize that the problem does not really lie with the system, but with the skaters. As years pass, skaters who grew up learning how to do inside edge sit spins and belimans that cater to the new system will also be well rehrearsed in landing jumps with good technique. ISU want the champions of the furture to the best skaters possible, and if that means that the current skaters must have hardships, so it be. If the ISU back down now, and removes theses penalties, skaters will keep doing bad technique.

That's got a lot of truth in it. One other thing to remember is that with the fans digesting Lipinsky as the youngest skater ever (the hype was everywhere), all the little girls who wanted to be in that category, never bothered to learn a proper lutz. The Flutz actually became a legitimate element - not in the rules exactly, but everywhere else. If one can win an Oly with a Flutz, why bother with that difficult jump? Unfortunately to unlearn a flutz is not all that easy so it stays with the flutzer for life. BTW, which European Lady Flutzes all the time?

No way can I respecr that and the Lipper as an element. Check the definitions. Is there a flutz or lip listed?

 

[skatingbc]

I kept thinking about this and I realize that the problem does not really lie with the system, but with the skaters. As years pass, skaters who grew up learning how to do inside edge sit spins and belimans that cater to the new system will also be well rehrearsed in landing jumps with good technique. ISU want the champions of the furture to the best skaters possible, and if that means that the current skaters must have hardships, so it be. If the ISU back down now, and removes theses penalties, skaters will keep doing bad technique.

ITA!!

Also, I hate people saying that since a jump looks ok then it must be ok, in relation to UR and edge calls. I'm sorry, but if a "triple" is really a 2.5 plus a carefully concealed turn at the end, it is not a triple jump and should not be given points for a triple. The ISU has set guidelines to what is UR and what is not. As long as those guidelines are followed, then skaters need to realistically evaluate their abilities and reassess their program content if they are consistently getting UR calls. If a skater is consistently getting UR calls, then I think the problem lies with the skater and not the caller. Same applies to edge calls.

 

[Blades of Passion]

You've missed the point. It's not that UR shouldn't be penalized, it's that it shouldn't be penalized as much as it is now. What is the argument for a UR being worse of a mistake than falling on a jump? Because that's currently how it gets scored with the CoP rules.

 

[skatingbc]

You've missed the point. It's not that UR shouldn't be penalized, it's that it shouldn't be penalized as much as it is now. What is the argument for a UR being worse of a mistake than falling on a jump? Because that's currently how it gets scored with the CoP rules.

I disagree with you. I think it's good that they are being penalized as much as they are. If you can't rotate a jump completely, don't do it. I think the 6.0 system was too lax on UR calls and that is why there is so much uproar about them now. I think UR's are hidden well by skaters but they are a huge problem. The jump is not completed...much the same as a fall.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Is a jump completed when hands are put down on the landing? When the skater two-foots the jump? When the skater falls out of the jump?

Why are those penalties not just as harsh then?

No, underrotation is far too heavily penalized. First of all, the current rule downgrades a Triple to a Double if it is underrotated. An underrotated Triple is not a double. The skater has rotated far more than a double jump. Negative GOE being added on top of that when the landing may have been clean is an additional rule which doesn't make sense.

Plus, there are different levels of underrotation. Was the jump slightly underrotated or very clearly underrotated (such as the skater's entire blade being on the ice forward)? It doesn't matter according to CoP and what makes most people really infuriated is that most underrotations are slight and yet they receive a MASSIVE penalty when called.

 

[gkelly]

Plus, there are different levels of underrotation. Was the jump slightly underrotated or very clearly underrotated (such as the skater's entire blade being on the ice forward)? It doesn't matter according to CoP and what makes most people really infuriated is that most underrotations are slight and yet they receive a MASSIVE penalty when called.

There are different levels of penalty, but they don't scale evenly with the degree of underrotation.

Assuming that there are no other errors and the only error is the underrotation:

If the jump looks a little short to a judge and the tech panel does not downgrade it, the jump would get full base value and -1 GOE from that judge

If it looks a little short to a judge, or even if the judge thought it was clean in real time, and tech panel does downgrade it, it gets the base value of the lower-revolution jump and -1 GOE

That's the biggest jump in final value for the element. For practical purposes the rules have to draw the line somewhere and 90 degrees was the point decided on. The difference between 89 vs. 91 degrees, or let's say even 80 vs. 100, is not going to be perceived 100% consistently depending on viewing angle and other factors of the individual callers' or judges' perception, but the decision whether or not to downgrade a borderline jump can make several points worth of difference

If the jump is obviously, unquestionably somewhere between 90 and 180 degrees short, and downgraded, it would probably get -2 GOEs along with the lower base mark

If it's obviously a full 180 degrees short, or worse, it would get -3 along with the downgrade

If there are additional errors (e.g., touchdown or hop on the landing) in addition to an obvious downgradable jump, the GOEs would also probably be -3

If there are more, or more serious, additional errors (e.g., step out, or problems with other phases of the jump before the landing), the GOE would still be -3, and unless there's a fall the GOE would end up being the same for this badly flawed cheated jump as for a jump whose only flaw was being cheated -- at a certain point the compounded problems with the element stop being reflected with worse and worse scores -- this was also true for short program deductions in the old system

Then if there's also a fall, the jump would be downgraded, the GOE would be -3, and there would also be a -1.00 fall deduction

 

[skatingbc]

Is a jump completed when hands are put down on the landing? When the skater two-foots the jump? When the skater falls out of the jump?

Why are those penalties not just as harsh then?

No, underrotation is far too heavily penalized. First of all, the current rule downgrades a Triple to a Double if it is underrotated. An underrotated Triple is not a double. The skater has rotated far more than a double jump. Negative GOE being added on top of that when the landing may have been clean is an additional rule which doesn't make sense.

Plus, there are different levels of underrotation. Was the jump slightly underrotated or very clearly underrotated (such as the skater's entire blade being on the ice forward)? It doesn't matter according to CoP and what makes most people really infuriated is that most underrotations are slight and yet they receive a MASSIVE penalty when called.

A TRIPLE jump is not completed when the skater only completes 2 and a bit rotations in the air and the rest on the ice. Period.
I think a hand down is a jump completed with a minor mistake, same with two footing. Obviously when a skater faalls out of a jump, the jump is not completed. When a skater steps out of a landing, then the jump is completed. IMO, a cheated jump doesn't have a clean landing.

No, an underrotated double is not a triple, but how the hell are you supposed to score a partially rotated triple? Should we start measuring the rotation actually completed and them give them a score on that? To me, that would open the door for people to underrotate on purpose just to get partial marks of more difficult elements. Think of the controversy! :disapp:

I'm all for larger URs being penalized more than slights URs, but I think it opens the door for so much crap.

I guess my mentality towards URs and Edge Calls is "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time".

 

[Blades of Passion]

If it looks a little short to a judge, or even if the judge thought it was clean in real time, and tech panel does downgrade it, it gets the base value of the lower-revolution jump and -1 GOE

Not really. Judges mostly seem to give -2 GOE regardless of "how underrotated" it was.

 

[Blades of Passion]

A TRIPLE jump is not completed when the skater only completes 2 and a bit rotations in the air and the rest on the ice. Period.

Again, nobody is saying there shouldn't be a penalty.

But, YOU YOURSELF, just admitted that an underrotated Triple has more rotation than a Double. So why then does the jump get downgraded to a double? This is the problem. Underrotated jumps should have their own values - more than a double, less than Triple.

There is a HUGE point range between the value of a double jump and a triple jump (and also a Triple and a Quad). It would be quite easy to make an extra table of values for underrotated jumps.

 

[skatingbc]

Again, nobody is saying there shouldn't be a penalty.

But, YOU YOURSELF, just admitted that an underrotated Triple has more rotation than a Double. So why then does the jump get downgraded to a double? This is the problem. Underrotated jumps should have their own values - more than a double, less than Triple.

There is a HUGE point range between the value of a double jump and a triple jump (and also a Triple and a Quad). It would be quite easy to make an extra table of values for underrotated jumps.

Um, if you look at my previous posts, I never said that a UR triple is a double. Please let the record show that I ADMIT that a UR triple is not, I repeat, IS NOT a double.

However, I think making a table of values would encourage skaters who can't do a certain jump without a UR call to attempt that jump. I want to see skaters do clean Triple jumps, not 2.69846 jumps!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Comparing Penalties for an UR and a Fall

Falls, and URs, show up just about in every competition. Both errors have their standard deductions but they are not uniform. It's more than likely that the UR does not mar the program, but the Fall does. It's obvious. How can the UR be more penalized than a Fall.

Neither error should be overlooked, and judges should not think the skater(s) ordinarily can do these jumps without errors. The principle of the CoP is to judge what the skater does in that program in that competition - not what he has done in the past.

I believe these errors and the WETS too, be given the same automatic deductions uniformly, and be done with these problems. That would place the entire blame on the Tech Panel, and the judges would be off the hook.

 

[Blades of Passion]

However, I think making a table of values would encourage skaters who can't do a certain jump without a UR call to attempt that jump. I want to see skaters do clean Triple jumps, not 2.69846 jumps!

I don't think it would encourage anymore than what we are already seeing. Skaters will either attempt something or they won't depending on their state of mind at the time. And, mostly, skaters are going to attempt everything they can. Why? Because that's what you need to win. If a certain skater could theoretically not rotate any Triple except the Toeloop and Salchow, it's not going to stop them from attempting bigger Triples. EVEN with the current system where underrotating jumps is killer. This is because the said skater has absolutely NO chance of doing anything with their competitive career unless they try to do difficult Triple jumps.

The fair solution, to me, is to actually make these underrotated jumps worth the CORRECT amount. Underrotating a jump but landing it cleanly is better than quite a few other mistakes which could be made on said jump.

For example, look at Yukari Nakano's Triple Axel. No, she doesn't quite get the full rotation. BUT when she lands it cleanly it's still a strong move, one that has WAY more impact than if she had simply done a Double Axel. She should be rewarded for that solid, good-looking attempt at such a difficult jump. Instead, with the current CoP rules, she gets less points than if she had only done a Double Axel. That is simply criminal. CRIMINAL.

 

[skatingbc]

The fair solution, to me, is to actually make these underrotated jumps worth the CORRECT amount. Underrotating a jump but landing it cleanly is better than quite a few other mistakes which could be made on said jump.

For example, look at Yukari Nakano's Triple Axel. No, she doesn't quite get the full rotation. BUT when she lands it cleanly it's still a strong move, one that has WAY more impact than if she had simply done a Double Axel. She should be rewarded for that solid, good-looking attempt at such a difficult jump. Instead, with the current CoP rules, she gets less points than if she had only done a Double Axel. That is simply criminal. CRIMINAL.

An underrotated jump is not correct though, so why should there be a reward for skaters who do it? I think that if points were developed for underrotated jumps it would discourage some skaters from actually fixing their mistakes.

IMO, an underrotated jump is never landed cleanly. I really don't care how much impact a jump has on a program if it's UR. I can tell if a jump is UR most of the time and I'd rather see clean jumps. Sorry.

Yukari knows what will happen if here tripple axel is UR. She obviously accepts these consequences because she continues to include it in her program.

 

[Particle Man]

I have a question. Why people want to see the "Incorrect" techniques?

What people want to see are scores that reflect what they see on the ice. Long lists of numbers posted "somewhere, sometime" on the internet DON'T CUT IT. If the ISU really wants UR to destroy skaters' scores, maybe they should have big red flashing lights and sirens go off every time an UR happens... at least that would reflect what happens to the skaters who UR...

 

[tarotx]

I think Skaters will eventually get that they have to do triples and not almost triples to get the score they are going for. It's just hell right now with these first crop of skaters who have to worry about this.

What happens when a skater skates a magical skate but only almost triples every triple. A seemingly perfect program to the audience. And the next skater has a horrible looking fall and an emotionless skate but hits the rotations of the triples-even the one she fall on-and her speed and basics are good. What do people want?

 

[skatingbc]

I think Skaters will eventually get that they have to do triples and not almost triples to get the score they are going for. It's just hell right now with these first crop of skaters who have to worry about this.

What happens when a skater skates a magical skate but only almost triples every triple. A seemingly perfect program to the audience. And the next skater has a horrible looking fall and an emotionless skate but hits the rotations of the triples-even the one she fall on-and her speed and basics are good. What do people want?

Wow, A breath of fresh air!

Before CoP, watching the pre-juvenile/juvenile competitions was irritating beyond belief. Little girls "jumping" and pulling off "double" jumps and delivering cutesy little programs was the norm. The doubles were non-existent. The top girls got about 1-2 cm off the ice. Now, the jumps are bigger and the girls are actually skating. Cute still prevails, of course, but the girls are developing proper technique and becoming real figure skaters. I guess maybe watching my sister do a few real doubles with energy and enthusiasm and always losing to other girls who weren't jumping at all, but were awfully cute, has jaded me towards URs.

 

[Mafke]

What happens when a skater skates a magical skate but only almost triples every triple. A seemingly perfect program to the audience. And the next skater has a horrible looking fall and an emotionless skate but hits the rotations of the triples-even the one she fall on-and her speed and basics are good. What do people want?

The more important question is "which skater will put paying butts in the seats?"
I'm betting on the magical skater who tends to underrotate. If the ISU wants to bet on the air-rotater who can't land the jumps, then good luck to them. They'll need it.

Bottom line for me: Slight underrotation (of the kind the ISU is hammering) doesn't bother me and and a skater who can land a slightly underrotated jump with speed and grace is showing good skating skills.

Spinning in the air and not being able to hold the landing may be good technique for the ISU but it's going to alienate the audience. Intuitively, I would say it doesn't take any skating skills to fall, even I can do that just fine.

 

[skatingbc]

The more important question is "which skater will put paying butts in the seats?"
I'm betting on the magical skater who tends to underrotate. If the ISU wants to bet on the air-rotater who can't land the jumps, then good luck to them. They'll need it.

Bottom line for me: Slight underrotation (of the kind the ISU is hammering) doesn't bother me and and a skater who can land a slightly underrotated jump with speed and grace is showing good skating skills.

Spinning in the air and not being able to hold the landing may be good technique for the ISU but it's going to alienate the audience. Intuitively, I would say it doesn't take any skating skills to fall, even I can do that just fine.

The comparison was between a consistent UR and a skater who falls ONCE (Mao at 08 Worlds anyone?) but otherwise lands the jumps.

I would prefer the jumps landed clean with full rotation because performance can be improved. I find when a skater consistently underrotates then it is extremely hard for them to ever be able to rotate their jumps fully.

 

[gkelly]

It's usually not a choice between falls on fully rotated jumps and standing up on underrotated ones.

Probably a majority of falls are on underrotated jumps, and a majority of underrotated jumps end in falls (and/or two-foot landings).

The underrotated jump that ends in a fall should be (and is) be penalized by more than one that is only underrotated or one that is only marred by a fall.

Anyone can occasionally underrotate a jump that they are usually able to land, especially later in a program when fatigue has set in, most likely with other problems on the landing. More rarely, a skater who usually lands a jump cleanly may be able to cheat out a one-foot landing on a slight underrotation.

Only a very few skaters have the knack of habitually underrotating triple jumps and standing up on them on one foot. As skatingbc mentions, it's more commonly seen with doubles at the lower levels. In colloquial skating parlance, this has long been known as cheating the landings.

The question is whether these skaters should be encouraged to include these jumps in their programs and be rewarded for them, or whether trying to get away with underrotated landings should be considered cheating in a more literal sense.

My personal feeling is that the downgraded base mark combined with a GOE reduction is already enough of a penalty for these jumps. If (and only if) there are some excellent qualities to the element as well, I'd like them to be able to compensate for the rotation problems; i.e., just get rid of the requirement that the final GOE for the element must be negative. For severe underrotations or for jumps with other problems as well, the GOE will definitely be negative and quite likely -3, along with the lower base mark.