This is in the second part of the interview? I'm sorry to hear about it. I've never understood the urge to make an opponent of one's favorite/student/protege look bad. I love Michelle, but I could see that Irina had so much to offer in her skating, interestingly in very different areas from Michelle. She was buoyant, upbeat, strong, with those beautiful, springy jumps. I also found her refreshing in that she didn't look like what we often envision as the Russian woman in skating or gymnastics. One always imagines someone delicate and ballet-trained, or passionate and sultry (like Oksana Grishchuk, for instance). Irina was bubbly and forthright and valiant. Political wins? Fie on that. She won because she was good. Like Michelle, in fact.
Frank Carroll interview
- Thread starter Mathman
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This is in the second part of the interview? I'm sorry to hear about it. I've never understood the urge to make an opponent of one's favorite/student/protege look bad. I love Michelle, but I could see that Irina had so much to offer in her skating, interestingly in very different areas from Michelle. She was buoyant, upbeat, strong, with those beautiful, springy jumps. I also found her refreshing in that she didn't look like what we often envision as the Russian woman in skating or gymnastics. One always imagines someone delicate and ballet-trained, or passionate and sultry (like Oksana Grishchuk, for instance). Irina was bubbly and forthright and valiant. Political wins? Fie on that. She won because she was good. Like Michelle, in fact.
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- Jun 21, 2003
^ If you listen to the interview, this part of the discussion is very brief, amid many observations and recollections about many topics. Frank Carroll says that Irina Slutskaya was not a "beautiful skater." She wasn't. Janet Lynn was a "beautiful skater". Irina was a powerful skater, a talented skater, a skillful skater, an athletic skater, a crowd-pleasing skater. In the one-word description game that the interview ends with, Frank's word for Irina is "vivacious."
He does say several times that he thinks the United States is bad at playing the political game, and that this has worked to the disadvantage of his skaters over the years in international competition. Lots of people have said that, Tatiana Tarasova and Didier Gailhaguet for instance.
He does say several times that he thinks the United States is bad at playing the political game, and that this has worked to the disadvantage of his skaters over the years in international competition. Lots of people have said that, Tatiana Tarasova and Didier Gailhaguet for instance.
Oh, okay. Then I'll listen to it when work eases up. Thanks, Math.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
He does, and he doesn't. A good number of minutes are devoted to the topic, but in the end he says that he doesn't really know why Michelle and her family came to that decision, and he is not sure that Michelle herself can give a cogent and concise reason.
Throughout the interview Mr. Carroll emphasized the fact that figure skating is a business. It is his business and his livelihood to coach skaters. Skating was Michelle's business, too. The Kwan family made great sacrifices, even selling their home, to invest in Michelle's career. There have always been rumors that both money and control over Michelle's career were matters of discussion between Frank and the Kwans. Frank mentioned the time that Michelle was offered a great deal of money to compete at Skate Canada. Frank did not want her to go, feeling that she needed to rest her injured foot. She went anyway, without Frank.
Frank revealed in the interview that it is his standard procedure to include a clause in his contracts with skaters to the effect that if they make the team for worlds, then he gets 5% of all the money they make from then on, including endorsements, shows, etc. If Michelle had won the 2002 Olympics she stood to make millions. (She did OK financially anyway.
) He had (has) the same contract with Evan Lysacek.But not with Denis Ten. Now that Denis is suddenly a factor in the 2014 Olympics, that oversight will be quickly remedied.
Frank also suggested that one reason that Michelle forced herself to go to the 2006 Olympics was because if she made it to the opening ceremonies then Coca Cola would have to pay off on their contract with Michelle. (I still have a can of coke from 2006 with Michelle's picture on it.
) A lot of Kwan fans are protesting this speculation on Frank's part as if it makes Michelle look bad. I don't think so. The USFSA. the television networks, the USOC, everybody and his brother stood to profit handsomely from whatever Michelle could squeeze out of her wracked-up body. More power to her, and good on her for giving Emily Hughes the heads up in a timely fashion.It's hard to know from the outside what the pressures are inside that bubble of Skateland. For years we in the West griped because Eastern bloc skaters were subsidized by their governments and were de facto professionals. Certainly Witt did handsomely by that system, but on the other hand, her parents were prevented from leaving East Germany ever to see her compete internationally. In the west, it's possible to make money with careful planning and the help of the right sponsors, and Michelle and Kristi and a few others have benefited from that, but on the other hand, skating is brutally expensive, and whole families go into hock to give their promising kid that chance. One could say that both Frank and Michelle had a bit of a mercenary approach, but they both also worked very hard, and Michelle especially worked physically hard for over a decade, giving up most of an outside life, and she certainly gave the skating federations and the corporate sponsors more than their money's worth. She never dragged her name and theirs through the mud, she never slacked off or phoned it in, she never sold her name and image to a reality show to rake in money for just being alive. So if that's the system, she participated honestly and gave as much as she got from it. And, as you point out, Math, she gave Emily Hughes enough warning so that Emily could get over to Italy and prepare for her big moment.
My idea of a really mercenary approach is the Kardashian model, where people market themselves instead of their work. Supposedly Kim has "designed" clothes and a perfume. Yeah, and I've piloted the space shuttle.
I'm not thrilled with the idea of Carroll's getting 5% of people's skating earnings forever, but I don't know what the prevailing practice is. Certainly, judging by how badly some other promising skaters have been coached in terms of technique, one can conclude that Carroll's work and training were the underpinnings of Michelle's impeccable skating skills, so he did help get her where she ended up.
My idea of a really mercenary approach is the Kardashian model, where people market themselves instead of their work. Supposedly Kim has "designed" clothes and a perfume. Yeah, and I've piloted the space shuttle.
I'm not thrilled with the idea of Carroll's getting 5% of people's skating earnings forever, but I don't know what the prevailing practice is. Certainly, judging by how badly some other promising skaters have been coached in terms of technique, one can conclude that Carroll's work and training were the underpinnings of Michelle's impeccable skating skills, so he did help get her where she ended up.
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- Jan 15, 2010
He said "bigger than life" (or "larger than life") which isn't a bad thing. It generally means that someone is very memorable and extraordinary. He also described Irina Slutskaya as "vivacious", which means lively and charming.
That's a nice spin on it. However, that's what your take is--pretty much all spin. You take more time in explaining Irina's strengths than Frank did. Frank's only positive word for Irina was "vivacious" at the very end. Otherwise, no, he didn't spend much time discussing Irina but what he implied about her achievements wasn't very pretty. And that reflects poorly on Frank.
Here is a rough transcription of what he says about Irina.
The wondering "how she really achieved what she did...against Michelle Kwan...is kind of mind-boggling" is probably the worst statement. You can dismiss it if you like. No big deal. I am just disappointed that Frank said that and I'm entitled to that.
Tarasova's comments were about how Frank Carroll didn't play the political game properly against Tara Lipinski, no? So I don't think that Tarasova's comments really support Frank's argument that the US is bad at playing the political game. Hello, Evan Lysacek / 2010 Olympics anybody?
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- Jan 28, 2013
From a purely capitalist marketplace approach, it makes perfect sense. A commission approach provides incentive for the employee (the coach) to work as hard as possible on behalf of the employer (the skater) while maximizing his own income. One can argue that without Carroll's practice techniques, musical advice, emotional support and counseling... and whatever else a figure skating coach provides... Michelle may never have had the success she did.
Michelle must have seen the wisdom of this approach, because they entered the contract. They had the option to find another coach, but didn't, because they perceived that this was the best way to insure success for the athlete.
I think the deal worked to the advantage of both parties.
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- Apr 11, 2013
Frank's comments were in the context of a personal and intimate video interview where he was sharing his personal opinions, not as a skating official, judge or journalist who is bound by ethics to remain unbiased.
His comments were quite harsh in regards to Irina's skating and legacy, but, speaking as someone who enjoyed Irina's skating myself (although Michelle was my favorite), Irina was hardly a gracious loser. She was refreshingly blunt and often wouldn't even bother to hide her bitter disappointment on camera when she lost. I am pretty sure Irina and her coaches/Russian commentators probably had similarly dismissive statements to make about Michelle and her lack of technical daring in their native Russian that we just haven't heard about.
Figure skating is inherently subjective, even though we try nowadays to make it as technical as possible. When Yuna Kim skates clean, she usually beats the runner up by a huge margin of points. Because of this, many Yuna fans have taken to declaring that Yuna is the best skater in history by a landslide and no one even comes close. Other skating fans may disagree and find that, results aside, speaking purely from a skating standpoint - what judges value may not always agree with what individual fans value. To them, the difference between Mao and Yuna in quality is not so extreme, as they are able to note unique strengths and weaknesses in both skaters. One could make a "fair" argument for either claim - one based on results which show that there is a huge chasm between Yuna's scores and other skaters', vs the other claim that Yuna and Mao are not so far away from one another when you compare individual elements because they each have their own strengths, regardless of competitive results. Skating is subjective. Frank is biased, and so are most people..
There were some commenters on other sites spinning it as Frank being nationalistic, a claim I disagree with completely. One user here insinuates that Frank admitting that the 96 worlds result was "controversial" was not enough and that he should have told Michelle that her win was probably influenced by politics. I was personally surprised at Frank's dismissal of Irina and yet I still thought Frank was already very generous in describing the results as "controversial". Many skating fans may still argue whether Chen Lu or Michelle deserved to win, but most will also agree that both performances were of high quality technically and artistically and that it wasn't a clear cut case of the winner being robbed, but rather a close race. Frank made very positive comments about non-American skaters including Chen Lu, Maria Butyrskaya and Carolina Kostner, all of whom had competed against Michelle.
His comments were quite harsh in regards to Irina's skating and legacy, but, speaking as someone who enjoyed Irina's skating myself (although Michelle was my favorite), Irina was hardly a gracious loser. She was refreshingly blunt and often wouldn't even bother to hide her bitter disappointment on camera when she lost. I am pretty sure Irina and her coaches/Russian commentators probably had similarly dismissive statements to make about Michelle and her lack of technical daring in their native Russian that we just haven't heard about.
Figure skating is inherently subjective, even though we try nowadays to make it as technical as possible. When Yuna Kim skates clean, she usually beats the runner up by a huge margin of points. Because of this, many Yuna fans have taken to declaring that Yuna is the best skater in history by a landslide and no one even comes close. Other skating fans may disagree and find that, results aside, speaking purely from a skating standpoint - what judges value may not always agree with what individual fans value. To them, the difference between Mao and Yuna in quality is not so extreme, as they are able to note unique strengths and weaknesses in both skaters. One could make a "fair" argument for either claim - one based on results which show that there is a huge chasm between Yuna's scores and other skaters', vs the other claim that Yuna and Mao are not so far away from one another when you compare individual elements because they each have their own strengths, regardless of competitive results. Skating is subjective. Frank is biased, and so are most people..
There were some commenters on other sites spinning it as Frank being nationalistic, a claim I disagree with completely. One user here insinuates that Frank admitting that the 96 worlds result was "controversial" was not enough and that he should have told Michelle that her win was probably influenced by politics. I was personally surprised at Frank's dismissal of Irina and yet I still thought Frank was already very generous in describing the results as "controversial". Many skating fans may still argue whether Chen Lu or Michelle deserved to win, but most will also agree that both performances were of high quality technically and artistically and that it wasn't a clear cut case of the winner being robbed, but rather a close race. Frank made very positive comments about non-American skaters including Chen Lu, Maria Butyrskaya and Carolina Kostner, all of whom had competed against Michelle.
Quite right. He has no obligation to be unbiased, but then he opens himself up to a spectrum of reactions. I and others are allowed to react as we wish. Many people love this interview, and they're entitled to feel that way. Frank's comments disappointed me personally. I thought it would have been classier had he been more generous towards Irina. But he wasn't, and that's that.
Irina's actions/reactions are not what's being discussed here.
I'm not really sure why you brought Yuna fans into this (and quite frankly, on this forum I don't see a lot of the "Yuna is the best skater in history by a landslide and no one else even comes close" claim), and I don't think they do anything differently than what any ardent fan of a skater does in proclaiming that they are the best. The only thing different is what they point to. Michelle Kwan fans pointed to the # of 6.0s and # of world/national titles; Yu-Na fans point to margin in victory/world records; Irina fans point to her big jumps and difficult combos; Sasha Cohen fans point to the line, flexibility, positions, etc.
That wasn't what I was "insinuating" at all. Most definitely not that "he should have told Michelle that her win was probably influenced by politics."
I found it ironic that Frank wonders out loud at how Irina could have accomplished what she did against Michelle, but when discussing a close, controversial result that swung in Michelle's favor, he naturally never mentions politics at all. No, I wasn't implying that Frank should have mentioned politics to Michelle at the time. My point is that he'll imply politics when his skater lost against a foreign skater, but of course, he'd never mention politics if his skater won in a close controversial competition. And that just undermines his credibility. No, it wouldn't have been better if he had mentioned politics possibly playing a factor in 1996 Worlds; it would have been better had he never implied that Irina's wins over Michelle were unfair.
I love Michelle Kwan's skating, for always. This interview didn't make me love Frank Carroll, and I gave my reasons why. That's all.
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- Oct 19, 2009
Actually, I might agree with this. Frank's comments are comparable to a Michellebot declaring Michelle Kwan a "heavenly creature"... And since I'm a Yuna uber, I am sure I will similarly look back upon videos and continue to wonder how in heck Miki Ando's PC scores weren't decimated in light of what YuNa and Mao were doing when she placed ahead of them in a few major competitions.
(For the record, I, too, like Irina Slutskaya!)
But in all seriousness, I didn't think there was anything political or accusatory in his comments unless he went out there and said "I disagreed with it" or "I should have demanded that we switch up the judges." This was a rare insight into the mind and heart of Frank. He just seems like a gracious, intelligent man. Jenny and Dave did a fantastic job prompting him to talk about some interesting topics. AW I wish they'd asked him what he thought of this year's World ladies champ!!!
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2013
You're definitely free to react to Frank's opinions
I just wanted to remind everyone that Frank was probably being frank (hehe) in a very informal interview environment and not necessarily trying to be unbiased or make some kind of official indictment against Irina's skills. He was probably speaking as a starry-eyed fan like many of us do without any specific malice, but since he's such a prolific coach it might cause people to raise their eyebrows and take it more seriously than he intended.And yes, Irina's actions are independent of Frank's but I just wanted to remind everyone so they have all the facts
Personally, I thought Irina was Michelle's greatest rival.
I didn't mean to call out Yuna's fans personally, she's just one example I could have used. The last part of this quote sums up my thoughts exactly. I respect Irina's strengths, but Frank evidently doesn't, since he as an individual values/prioritizes certain things in skating, like Sasha fans do with her skating and Yuna/Michelle's fans do with theirs.
I understand the point you're making, but the reason I brought that specific case up is that I personally don't think 1996 is truly "controversial", which is why I think it's generous that he even described it that way to begin with. It was a close call, but controversial implies that Michelle robbed Lu Chen or that there was some huge upset like with the recent Ten-Chan debacle. There's probably far better examples of politics working in Michelle's favor than 96 worlds in my opinion.
Thanks for the welcome! I've lurked before and quite enjoy your posts.
AW I wish they'd asked him what he thought of this year's World ladies champ!!!
I am pretty sure I've read that Frank thinks Yuna is amazing, like most people
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2009
WHAAAAATTT?!? Did we listen to the same interview? I thought Frank explicitly said that this was not the case with Michelle, that there was no contract, and that he didn't even start doing these contracts with selected skaters, for the 5% cut of a skater's earnings, until after his coaching relationship with Michelle was over. He did say that the Kwan's paid him and paid him well, but in the context of how he was speaking, I took it to mean that they were just paying a very good hourly rate for coaching fees plus his travel expenses for when he went to competitions with her (all normal practice in the USA). But that's different from a contractual percentage of earnings.
Before this interview, I had always surmised since way back in 2001 when this split happened, that the breakup was over money and that Frank wanted to start getting a % of her earnings and get a contract locked in before she won the Olympic Gold in 2002 (her winning was a widespread assumption at the time), and that he made it a condition of continuing as her coach. With a further assumption that Danny Kwan said "no way" to this deal and either showed Frank the door, or Frank said "sayonara" and that was that. I can't recall what gave me this impression back during that period, but it was very strong at the time, and has persisted all these years. However, after listening and watching Frank during this interview, either this was not the case, or Frank is a darn good liar/actor.
I still cannot believe his explanation that there was nothing either of them could put their finger on as the reason for that breakup happening exactly when it did. Not a few short months before an Olympic competition, things like this just don't happen except for one of two reasons: 1) abuse 2) money disputes, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the former.
One of the things I've always respected about both Frank and Michelle is that they don't talk about the reasons for their split. I also agree that it wasn't something dreadful such as abuse, so it was either money or some strange rebellion that Michelle felt at that time. Of course I'd love to know why, but I think it's clearly their private business, and it's very classy that not only have they kept quiet about the reason, but neither of them has badmouthed the other in public. (The breakup of YuNa and Brian Orser was so painful to witness.) I also like that Michelle and Frank remain (or have become once again) on good terms.
By the way, welcome, Pointyourtoe. Like you, I think of Irina as Michelle's greatest rival. Both of those ladies were strong skaters (each with different strengths, to make it even more interesting), both pretty cool under pressure, and both with the drive to sustain a long career. Both also projected wonderfully to audiences while skating. Irina was more upbeat and vivacious, while Michelle was more mysterious and subtle, but both were charming.
By the way, welcome, Pointyourtoe. Like you, I think of Irina as Michelle's greatest rival. Both of those ladies were strong skaters (each with different strengths, to make it even more interesting), both pretty cool under pressure, and both with the drive to sustain a long career. Both also projected wonderfully to audiences while skating. Irina was more upbeat and vivacious, while Michelle was more mysterious and subtle, but both were charming.
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- Nov 22, 2009
I agree that they have kept it classy (as has Michelle's similarly close-mouthed family), and for all of our rubbernecking curiosity, it's really none of our business.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Actually, that's my job. To re-write what skaters and coaches say and make it come out better. For this service I charge 5%.
I don't think we will ever know the reason behind Michelle leaving Frank the year before the OWG. I just recall talking to Frank at that Skate America where her dad, Danny, was at the coaching station. Frank had tears in his eyes because it hurt him to the core, but he never said a negative thing about Michelle and never has to this day and probably never will.
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- Mar 26, 2012
What a great interview! One almost never hears a personal perspective from a coach. He didn't hold back. What an enriching career and still in demand! My sympathy for his loss ( about his sister). I respect how he separates his personal life from his professional. After having lived and continue to live in Norway, folks here have business relationships and work well during business hours; but when you punch out you go to your separate homes... no drinks afterwards. I have no idea where my bosses live and that's perfect! So in that sense, Frank is a true professional. I remember in one interview when he was coaching Michelle Kwan that he said that he was not Michelle's parent and that she has a wonderful pair to come home to. So he also knows how to separate coach from a 'dad.'
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