The connection does not have to necessarily mean chemistry between the partners(though it helps a lot, especially in a latin themed program) but there must be some connection on the ice between the skaters. It bugs me that D/W almost never look at each other when they skate. Yes, they have gorgeous programs, very well selected, but that doesn't cover the lack of connection and when they compete against someone like V/M who have chemistry in spades, it's even more obvious. This is totally irrelevant though since D/W lost the competition on TES, not on PCS.
Free Dance Sunday 4:45 PM EST
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Yes, and that is an interesting factoid (that on a bad day for them, D&W still marginally won the PCS in the FD over V&M.)
Those interested in why this is might want to refer to this thread where we really got into it:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...Wrestle-with-Ice-Dancing-PCS-Rules&highlight=
Basically, it's because that's the way the rules are currently written.
This is a fact that helps Patrick Chan and Davis & White; so Canadians and Americans each have a dog on both sides of the fight. (The dance & singles PCS have more in common than not, other than timing items and character of the dance items for dance)
Those interested in why this is might want to refer to this thread where we really got into it:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...Wrestle-with-Ice-Dancing-PCS-Rules&highlight=
Basically, it's because that's the way the rules are currently written.
This is a fact that helps Patrick Chan and Davis & White; so Canadians and Americans each have a dog on both sides of the fight. (The dance & singles PCS have more in common than not, other than timing items and character of the dance items for dance)
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2003
I would like to comment on how much I enjoyed the final flight of the Dance. I’m sorry there were only three medals. Weaver & Poje have to be the most improved team this season. They are on such deep edges throughout, and perfectly assume the characters they are portraying. At last they look like a real partnership of equals, something that wasn’t always true in the past.
If Worlds were not being held in France this year, I think they could beat P&B for the bronze. It could still happen but I can wait until next year.
If Worlds were not being held in France this year, I think they could beat P&B for the bronze. It could still happen but I can wait until next year.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
W&P were wonderful! I think it will be very close for the bronze with P&B in Nice for them. They are definitely this year's most improved dancers IMO.
And Alex Shibutani giving a good performance while expending his last ounce of strength was very, very admirable. Maia's self-possession in dealing with it all was also amazing. I think Alex has said something or other like Maia is a 30 yr old in a 16 yr old body (17 now)--I could really see what he meant.
And Alex Shibutani giving a good performance while expending his last ounce of strength was very, very admirable. Maia's self-possession in dealing with it all was also amazing. I think Alex has said something or other like Maia is a 30 yr old in a 16 yr old body (17 now)--I could really see what he meant.
D/W got hit with level3s for their FD and it was because they were a tad off, likely due to Charlie's asthma and the altitude.
I still prefer D/W's FD to V/M's. V/M's "Funny Face" seems more like an exhibition piece to me, and those aren't the best Gershwin tunes IMO. They skated it well, but it doesn't do anything for me.
I still prefer D/W's FD to V/M's. V/M's "Funny Face" seems more like an exhibition piece to me, and those aren't the best Gershwin tunes IMO. They skated it well, but it doesn't do anything for me.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2003
Yes. I was watching their elements in slo-mo and their matching lines are amazing. They never hit a bad position throughout. But I was really concerned when I saw Alex's lips were bright blue at the end of his program. I thought they would be giving him oxygen in the KnC.
For the record, Virtue/Moir have chosen many audience friendly pieces of music as well: Valse Triste, Umbrellas of Cherbourg, Flamenco, Mahler (skating fans may think it boring but audiences love this kind of sweet stuff). And most especially the music from last year's Latin FD: you'd have to be dead to not be affected by Hip Hip Chin Chin or Mujer Latina.
My point is that both Virtue/Moir and Davis/White have gone back and forth in picking audience-friendly music and programs over the years. So this argument I keep seeing pop up time and again, that D/W consistently skate to easier music, is total BS.
My point is that both Virtue/Moir and Davis/White have gone back and forth in picking audience-friendly music and programs over the years. So this argument I keep seeing pop up time and again, that D/W consistently skate to easier music, is total BS.
Well said Apple Pi! It's amusing that many fans of V/M and D/W are so vehemently black and white about their opinions (very much like Mao vs Yuna and Michelle vs Sasha). Both are outstanding and have that special something in different ways. V/M were clearly better at 4CC as D/W were a tad off. D/W were clearly better than V/M at GPF. Can't we just appreciate how fortunate we are to have two amazing teams creating all this passion?
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
I enjoy both of the top two's free dances. That rarely happens for me. I am not emotionally invested in either team like I've been with other teams (I actually like The Shibs out of the top teams out of Igor and Marina's stable), but I noticed right off in Meryl and Charlie's skate was that they were off the music. They started too fast and ended up ahead of the music by quite a bit. So, in the FD at 4CC. Ok so the levels are what we are discussing, they looked like they were trying to figure out how to get back on track for the first third to half of the program. Add in the breathing issues and I can totally see them dropping a level or two. They weren't on their game yesterday. Tessa and Scott did better overall and they won. It's a "big" gap, sure, but looking back on it I can see why it happened.
It's not over, and it won't be over even after worlds. I see no reason to tear down either team. We should just be thankful we've got these two to have such a GREAT rivalry and push teh sport.
It's not over, and it won't be over even after worlds. I see no reason to tear down either team. We should just be thankful we've got these two to have such a GREAT rivalry and push teh sport.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
What I was replying to was a poster who thought D&W should be damned for skating to audience friendly music and V&M rewarded for skating to less audience friendly pieces. I thought it was a crock. I still do. It's more a crock if you feel V&M has audience friendly music, now that I think about it.
For the record, people's taste in music differs. For me:
I am intend affected by Hip Hip Chin Chin.
I am affected to turn off the radio!
but if Tessa & Scott are skating to it, I'll watch, but curse their musical choice, especially this year when a lot of other teams are using it.
Mujer Latina I really like.
Flamenco has a lot of heel tapping and does nothing for me musically, without their skating.
Umbrellas I detest 1000 times, especially the J'taime yelling, and the whole soppy I will wait for you song. I hated it long before I knew Tessa & Scott existed. Likewise S'Wonderful.
YMMV
But I don't think teams should either be rewarded or penalized for their musical choices.
For the record, people's taste in music differs. For me:
I am intend affected by Hip Hip Chin Chin.
I am affected to turn off the radio!
but if Tessa & Scott are skating to it, I'll watch, but curse their musical choice, especially this year when a lot of other teams are using it.
Mujer Latina I really like.
Flamenco has a lot of heel tapping and does nothing for me musically, without their skating.
Umbrellas I detest 1000 times, especially the J'taime yelling, and the whole soppy I will wait for you song. I hated it long before I knew Tessa & Scott existed. Likewise S'Wonderful.
YMMV
But I don't think teams should either be rewarded or penalized for their musical choices.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2003
My friend from Nashville has been a D&W fan since they were kids in the same way that I’ve been a V&M fan since they were little. Since 2005, we’ve been in awe of one another’s teams but we both think that our kids are the best and in 2005 we both said that we thought we’d be having this discussion for years to come.
After the Olympics, my friend said “OK, we’ll give you that one”. Now she’s not so generous. I think we both win when both teams skate like they did in the LP at the GPF. And after Scott fell in the SP, I said “OK, you get that one”.
Worlds is going to be awesome. I really hope both teams bring their best. Then we all win. But after the FD at the GPF I said “I don’t know which one was better. They both looked great!”. Yes, I want my team to win, but I don’t want them to be given a medal, I want them to win it. (I still feel guilt about that bronze in 2009.)
So for Worlds, I want both teams to skate their best and let the judges work it out.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
ITA 
I am not that excited to watch when I feel there's a predetermined winner and everyone else is a predetermined loser. So I hope just the same, that both teams really skate their best at Worlds, and finish the day knowing they did everything they could to win, and let the judges sort it out.
That will make the most exciting, best competition ever! I will be so sad when either of these teams retires, because I have really enjoyed watching them grow up to both be World Champions and Olympic medallists.
I am not that excited to watch when I feel there's a predetermined winner and everyone else is a predetermined loser. So I hope just the same, that both teams really skate their best at Worlds, and finish the day knowing they did everything they could to win, and let the judges sort it out.That will make the most exciting, best competition ever! I will be so sad when either of these teams retires, because I have really enjoyed watching them grow up to both be World Champions and Olympic medallists.
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2006
Boy ,after every competition , by the time I get here , it seems like there's not much left to say..OTOH , the initial gut reactions , and any hard feelings on behalf of favourites usually seem to have mellowed , somewhat, so I guess I won't complain.
I freely confess to a preference for V/M ..but if anyone wanted to deprive me of the great pleasure of watching Meryl and Charlie , we'd have to come to blows. And since either team might skate better than the other on any given day , I can face their contests with a degree of equanimity.
I've not felt drawn to FF all season ( I was never drawn to the movie , or the music, particularly ) but I see the detail and difficulty in the program , and really , the polish, nuance and expression that V/M bring to it has to be appreciated... Fledermaus , though , was a simply inspired choice for D/W, and for me , epitomizes the kind of thing I love to see them do. It's a situation that's kept me torn all season.
But there was no doubt who had the better skate , here. Like Dragonlady , I felt D/W were off their game all the way through.( even the " glorious " lift seemed a bit shaky , esp. on the exit ) When I re-watch these programs, this will not be the one I choose for D/W , though it might be for V/M.
Of all the guys who had to struggle through skating in this taxing evironment , Scott and Andrew seemed to manage best. I felt bad for Charlie and worse for Alex Shibutani. So though my anticipation was high for this competition, and I'm happy V/M and W/P had good skates , it wasn't satisfying all round.
I hope we'll see everyone primed and ready for World's , and may the environment be everything they could wish for.
I freely confess to a preference for V/M ..but if anyone wanted to deprive me of the great pleasure of watching Meryl and Charlie , we'd have to come to blows. And since either team might skate better than the other on any given day , I can face their contests with a degree of equanimity.
I've not felt drawn to FF all season ( I was never drawn to the movie , or the music, particularly ) but I see the detail and difficulty in the program , and really , the polish, nuance and expression that V/M bring to it has to be appreciated... Fledermaus , though , was a simply inspired choice for D/W, and for me , epitomizes the kind of thing I love to see them do. It's a situation that's kept me torn all season.
But there was no doubt who had the better skate , here. Like Dragonlady , I felt D/W were off their game all the way through.( even the " glorious " lift seemed a bit shaky , esp. on the exit ) When I re-watch these programs, this will not be the one I choose for D/W , though it might be for V/M.
Of all the guys who had to struggle through skating in this taxing evironment , Scott and Andrew seemed to manage best. I felt bad for Charlie and worse for Alex Shibutani. So though my anticipation was high for this competition, and I'm happy V/M and W/P had good skates , it wasn't satisfying all round.
I hope we'll see everyone primed and ready for World's , and may the environment be everything they could wish for.
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I think it bears repeating that D&W only beat V&M twice - at Worlds and at the Grand Prix, so it seemed a little premature of people to bury them. If the judging rewards the skating, not the speed and not the reputation, then Worlds should be really interesting.
I'm not attached to FF and I'd love to see V&M choose more audience friendly tunes the way D&W do, but that doesn't seem to be their style. V&M love this program and it clearly shows in their skating of it. That should be what matters to the judges.
I'm not attached to FF and I'd love to see V&M choose more audience friendly tunes the way D&W do, but that doesn't seem to be their style. V&M love this program and it clearly shows in their skating of it. That should be what matters to the judges.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
No. They beat them at the GPF twice, in 2009/2010, and again this year in 2011/2012 season, as well as at Worlds in 2011. They also technically beat them in the 2010/2011 season at 4CC's, but that should not be counted either way, since V&M were ahead in the SD, but withdrew in the FD.
However, your point that V&M should not be buried prematurely is very, very true. On any day, either of the 2 teams could win, I think.
However, I completely disagree that the fact that V&M love their Funny Face program (or for that matter that D&W love their Der Fledermaus program) should be what matters to the judges.
IMO
That should not matter to the judges at all.
It should not even matter to the judges whether the judges like the music or not.
What should matter to the judges is how they skate to their music, and how that skating conforms to the rules, both for TES and PCS.
If it mattered whether the judges liked the music, I doubt very much that D&W would have won with Il Postino.
However, your point that V&M should not be buried prematurely is very, very true. On any day, either of the 2 teams could win, I think.
However, I completely disagree that the fact that V&M love their Funny Face program (or for that matter that D&W love their Der Fledermaus program) should be what matters to the judges.
IMO
That should not matter to the judges at all.
It should not even matter to the judges whether the judges like the music or not.
What should matter to the judges is how they skate to their music, and how that skating conforms to the rules, both for TES and PCS.
If it mattered whether the judges liked the music, I doubt very much that D&W would have won with Il Postino.
Doris, I know you stated it as an opinion, but I'm just curious, does everyone really believe that the judges are not swayed by whether they like the music or not?
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I don't think the tech panel is swayed by the music, based on interviews I've listened to with tech specialists. They say that they really don't see the programs, just the elements.
The audience is swayed by the music, and their reaction has an effect on the skaters though.
The audience is swayed by the music, and their reaction has an effect on the skaters though.
I would tend to agree since it's been 2 years now that the USFSA has given feedback to Davis/White to change the music to their programs...the il postino change last year and the la strada change this year....I don't think it's just for the audiences, LOL....
V&M won this fair & square IMO , D&W seemed so out of control at times they made me gasp, Dance is NOT all about who is the fastest, I think they need to take this into consideration. I wonder how much more time these teams will be spending together in the near future, the icy glares been thrown backstage were so noticeable and off putting , far different than what we would see at other comps over the years, the joking and laughing at boardside has come to an end!
