Good Morning America-should Kwan Get Bye

[mzheng]

Her programs are semi-empty (unless you like lots of cross overs,) dull, and she's been held up by the judges for years because of the artistic mark.

I take it you've watched both of her programs this season? Why what I heard is different? Even without the jumps, with a little spins, they are still 'very beautyful'.

 

[Mathman]

She should have stuck with whoever was choreographing her programs in her early career. Those programs were actually interesting...

That would be the great Lori Nichol I agree to this extent, that the body of work that Lori created for Michelle from 1996-2001 really stands alone in terms of the all-time great figure skating collaborations.

In 2002 Michelle wanted, as she said, to "take control of her own skating." The result was the type of program exemplified by Aranjuez and Tosca, both of which absolutely brought the house down at U.S. Nationals is 2003 and 2004.

It is interesting to me to compare the work Nichol did for Michelle in the early years of her career with the programs that she is creating for Fumie Suguri. In Michelle's case, Lori went to great lengths to find (and carefully to edit) unusual music that no one had ever skated to before.

For Fumie, many of her programs use blockbusting classics like Bach and Mozart. Lori seems to stay away from the tried and true late nineteenth century classical music of the Romantic era (Tchaikovsky, etc.), which other choreographers and skaters seem to prefer.

Mathman

 

[Piel]

Gee, I wonder how much a cross over is worth under COP??

Well obviously a Kwan crossover would be worth much more than a crossover done by the other ladies.. Check out Kwan's fingers during a crossover... each one gracefully held at an angle to best display it's beauty. And don't forget that serene look on her face. You just don't get that detail with the other gals.... . Irina, sasha, Shiz, sure they perform a nice program. But our Shelley, she becomes the program.

 

[Justafan]

I hope she gets to go. I was ambivalent about it at first, but after watching last night's SP, I just don't think anyone other than Sasha has the goods...well okay they have the goods, but can they bring it? Kimmie, Emily, Bebe have good jumps, but still lack in the artistic department, IMO. Alyssa has lovely lines and spins, but inconsistent with her jumps. The only thing is that Michelle is an unknown quantity at the moment. I am guessing her injuries lately may be due to trying to upgrade her elements? From a purely emotional standpoint, I would love to see Michelle go and try for a medal again, if she is healthy enough to do so.

 

[Mathman]

Check out Kwan's fingers during a crossover... each one gracefully held at an angle to best display it's beauty...

Yes, that is quite true. Here is an illustration, taken from the ISU judges manual, of a level four finger position.

http://www.usfsa.org/content/events/200304/uschamps/senior/kwan-sp1.jpg

MM

 

[Piel]

Exactly MM. That pose alone should be worth 10 points.

 

[Mathman]

Or at least 9.

http://www.usoc.org/0-michelle-kwan-nine.jpg

 

[mzheng]

MM, I have a strange feeling. Looks like you exchange your moderator position with Joe recently?

 

[Mathman]

I have to take up the slack while Joe is at Nationals, LOL.

 

[mzheng]

I have to take up the slack while Joe is at Nationals, LOL.

That's not what I mean.

 

[nubka]

Well obviously a Kwan crossover would be worth much more than a crossover done by the other ladies.. Check out Kwan's fingers during a crossover... each one gracefully held at an angle to best display it's beauty. And don't forget that serene look on her face. You just don't get that detail with the other gals.... . Irina, sasha, Shiz, sure they perform a nice program. But our Shelley, she becomes the program.

Yes, yes, no dispute over her talent. What she does, she does very, very, well...it's just that she doesn't do much. Same old, same old all the time.

Honestly, she just doesn't draw me into her programs, not for a long time now. Early body of work, yes, definately. Now, no. With all of her grace and talent, so many times I waited to see what her "new" program would be, really hoping that she would try something new, breaking away from the mundane. I wanted to like her "new" programs, wanted her to really take a leap forward (if anyone could pull it off, she could,) but it was always the same. With her talent, she could have tried so many new things...why do her programs all look so similar? I know all great skaters have their signature moves, but come on... Even her costumes got into a rut...oh gee, another sleeveless bathingsuit-looking dress, wow.

She could go out and skate around an orange safety cone on the center of the ice and still "bring the house down". Aranjuez & Tosca...other than the footwork sequence, just more of the same. Lovely, YES, but I sometimes wonder what new heights she could have brought to her skating these past five-six years, if she had just been willing to leave her comfort zone and think out of the box...

 

[Piel]

When you look at all of the ladies programs they are all the same elements just skated to different music. Take Irina, with Tosca she grabbed her head, last years FS she did the little card dealing thing with her hands. This season it is Beillmann holds. With Sasha this year she has added the Beillmann. Kwan was attempting different spin variations and was injured. Other than more Beillmanns and Kimmie's and Mao's 3As nothing has really changed in ladies FS. As for costumes Kwan has as much variety as the other ladies..she doesn't like sleeves..so what? What els can she do to get out of her comfort zone? 3/3s and a more flexible back is the only think she is lacking. This year she has worked on those things and what happened? I think Kwan has taken her body to it's limits. She has been so good for so long that some find that boring. Others can't get enough of her skating. You an choose not to like what she does on the ice, but I don't think you can honestly say that she has attempted new things because she has. At her level the only improvements that are physically possible are very subtle. She is never going to have jumps as big as Irina's. She is never going to be as flexible as Sasha. OTOH Irina and Sasha are never going to have some of the qualities that Michelle has. Kwan's skating is not about big in your face jumps and flexibility moves. Obviously that's what her detractors feel the sport should be about. Michelle is about lyrical skating with great edges and flow and musical interpretation that reaches out to the audience.

 

[Gatzbee]

I take it you've watched both of her programs this season? Why what I heard is different? Even without the jumps, with a little spins, they are still 'very beautyful'.

and at the level 4 hands comment! those ARE beautiful hands. i'd say those should be level 10

 

[havanamesa1]

... Most junior girls would kill to skate like Emily and Bebe - esp since a 3 lutz isn't a jump that the average junior girl lands. Nor are the junior girls at US nationals nearly as polished... .

Most girls would most likely go, "Emily who? Bebe who?" and wouldn't reach the 3lutz question. On the other hand, drop Kwan's or Cohen's name and...

... Either way, I think it's presumptive to say that injured Michelle can skate better than those three when injured Michelle isn't competing against them. Her condition at Marshall's was promising that she could have gotten better by Nationals. Though the new injury is a huge set back.

As for Mzheng's comment on muscle memory, there still needs to be training to regain it. An injured skater doesn't miraculously walk on the ice and get it. Even Klimkin, who was out for a season, had a few horrible outings before he skated well at Russian Nats. I don't see how you (or anyone) expects Michelle to compete at the Olympics cold and manage a medal.

Didn't Kwan already say that she would withdraw if she feels she wouldn't be 100% of herself? If she decides to go then that means she's confident she can skate at her usual level. Her worst World's performance in a decade gave her 3rd place rankings in her SP and LP -- do you think that ANY other American skater's BEST performance (outside of Cohen) would even place that skater in the top five in a similar competition?

Kwan and Cohen are America's best shot for a medal. The thought that one or both of these two should not be sent by the US is just plain stupidity.

 

[show 42]

With all of her grace and talent, so many times I waited to see what her "new" program would be, really hoping that she would try something new, breaking away from the mundane

Nothing against Sasha, but one could make the same claim for her programs....all front loaded, same leg positions, etc. and gee, don't they all do crossovers to gain uh.....speed........

Anyway, there appears to be three things that cannot be amicably discussed.....religion, politics, and............ Kwan .............. 42

 

[orchid]

That's why we have alternates... :sheesh:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, she said she'd pull herself off the team if she's not 100% as *planned* and whoever's competitive enough to be the alternate can take the ice.

Oddlly enought, there will be no alternate for the ladies event, which will be sent to Turin, with the selected team. The alternate will remain in the states and be summoned if needed.

How does that work? If someone is injured, a phone call puts a skater on an 6+ hour flight and she is expected to be in top form on arrival?

Did everyone hear the official make the statement, pharaphrasing here, "we want medals'.(Referring to the selection committee) After the short program last night, can anyone see medals in all that?

BTW, did anyone else notice that Peggy & Dick were NOT gushing themsleves over Sasha?

O

 

[cianni]

Medals

Its about medals and Kwan at her worse is better then what I saw in the SP even better then Sasha. Sasha will win though by DEFAULT. Look at Sashas programs and see same old same old . OK Sasha we know you can stick your leg in the air but how many times are you going to do it. Same program different music same as Irina. The sport is stiffled at this point because the creativity is GONE. Leg in air ,over head and anywhere else is supposed to be artistry and creativity. NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

 

[Mathman]

BTW, did anyone else notice that Peggy & Dick were NOT gushing themsleves over Sasha?

I thought they got in the required, "she's the best in the world at this and that." Whatever Dick and Peggy left out was amply supplied by Kurt and Kat.

Dick and Peggy did point out that her opening triple Lutz was badly flutzed, that she slightly two-footed the flip, and that her spins were slower than usual -- perhaps the result of recent illness and being off the ice for a few days. But that's their job. Overall, I thought they were quite supportive of Sasha's effort.

MM

 

[Mathman]

Aranjuez & Tosca...other than the footwork sequence, just more of the same.

How I look at it is like this. "Interesting" is a subjective judgement. I can't make anyone take an interest in something they find boring just because I think it's cool.

For instance, if it were up to me I would give Stephanie Rosenthal the gold medal for her hip-hop SP at St. Louis. She had me up dancing in front of the TV. But the judges only gave her 8th. Booooooo.

To me, to say that the "only thing new about Aranjuez is the footwork" is like saying the only thing I like about the Mona Lisa is her smile. It was the triumphant footwork sequence, capping a spectacular, secure 6-triple performance, that brought the audience to their feet, cheering, laughing, crying, and shaking their heads, saying, "what will she come up with next!"

MM

 

[Bowers]

I don't like Tara therefore I have no further comment about her. I don't care what she says or does.

I want to know how you, soogar, know that Kwan has no 3/3 or loop. Have you been watching her practice? Have you seen her LP? I know you don't like Kwan, don't want her to go, but you can't say Kwan doesn't have this or that if you haven't been watching her practice.

He's being realistic! I don't think she's going to get a 3/3 in 3 weeks when she hasn't had it for years. In practice? maybe. In competition, no way! Three-loop, possibly, but don't wager on it. Neither will most wager on her even competing in Turin.

P. S. And you really shouldn't bash Tara! We know your reason! Think 1998!