Help Needed pronouncing Skaters Names

[dorispulaski]

sabinfire, I have your last vids installed in fan fests.

 

[sabinfire]

I know we already have a good version of Satoko; here she is saying Miyahara Satoko in 2014:
https://youtu.be/EvVMznIMROM

I would definitely like to have the 'best' versions available, so please do provide anything you come across that might be of better quality or better example than current versions. There is a lot of footage out there, and new stuff being created everyday.

Though, 'best example' might be a questionable criteria. I wondered about this when posting the Satoko clip. Obviously, Satoko's interview was being conducted in English, and she pronounced her name slightly different than if she were speaking Japanese. Since GS is a primarily English-speaking audience, and 99% of English-speaking persons will naturally pronounce Satoko in this way, I figured it would be the best example for our purposes. (And the fact that Satoko herself pronounced it this way would suggest she understands this too, and is fine with that pronunciation.)

However, this approach can result in loss of true foreign pronunciation in some names. Maybe close is good enough in this scenario?

For languages I am not as familiar with such as Japanese, the 'English-friendly' examples are preferable to me. But when finding Russian names, I always aim to find examples that are true to actual Russian pronunciation.

Just wanted to toss out this thought for opinions on which examples to focus on. FYI -- it's also possible, of course, to create clips that incorporate both variations, if available.

 

[ice coverage]

... If of any interest:

I know we already have a good version of Satoko; here she is saying Miyahara Satoko in 2014:
https://youtu.be/EvVMznIMROM

I know we already have a good version of Yuzuru; here he is saying Hanyu Yuzuru in 2015:
https://youtu.be/9F1MTOiAVqk?t=1m10s (starting at approx. 1:10) ...

I would definitely like to have the 'best' versions available, so please do provide anything you come across that might be of better quality or better example than current versions. There is a lot of footage out there, and new stuff being created everyday.

Though, 'best example' might be a questionable criteria. I wondered about this when posting the Satoko clip. Obviously, Satoko's interview was being conducted in English, and she pronounced her name slightly different than if she were speaking Japanese. Since GS is a primarily English-speaking audience, and 99% of English-speaking persons will naturally pronounce Satoko in this way, I figured it would be the best example for our purposes. (And the fact that Satoko herself pronounced it this way would suggest she understands this too, and is fine with that pronunciation.)

However, this approach can result in loss of true foreign pronunciation in some names. Maybe close is good enough in this scenario?

For languages I am not as familiar with such as Japanese, the 'English-friendly' examples are preferable to me. But when finding Russian names, I always aim to find examples that are true to actual Russian pronunciation.

Just wanted to toss out this thought for opinions on which examples to focus on. FYI -- it's also possible, of course, to create clips that incorporate both variations, if available.

sabinfire, appreciate the heavy lifting that you are doing for Doris' project .

Please know that I was not making any judgment as to whether the extra clips of Satoko and Yuzuru were best examples.

That is why I was careful to preface those links with "If of interest:". IF. IF. IF.

Absolutely fine by me if any of my links go no further than my own posting.

But I would rather share anything that I find -- instead of not recording a link in this thread, and then not being able to locate it easily later if I have second thoughts that maybe it would be worth offering to you and Doris to use (or not) at your own discretion. OFFERING. By no means asking that you use anything.

So my intention is to keep posting links (including second versions, if I happen to stumble across them) -- with the understanding that they might or might not be used.
No biggie -- as far as I am concerned -- if some are not used.

(All the videos in my Team Japan post were from the same YT channel.
It seemed stupid IMO not to post the Satoko and Yuzuru links that were readily available from that channel. I was not going out of my way to hunt down second versions from them.)

---

I hesitate to say anything more, because I am truly sincere when I say that I think that your preferences are what matter b/c you are doing the work of making the much-appreciated video selfies.

But my two cents, for what they are worth, are that it seems somewhat arbitrary to me that you prefer Russian pronunciations that are as authentic as possible, whereas you prefer Japanese pronunciations that are "English-friendly."

But again, I am thoroughly grateful that you are making the video selfies, and I firmly believe that it is your prerogative to follow your own preferences.

 

[sabinfire]

I am trying to gauge opinions on which approach to use for these clips. (Maybe, from your post, you do not have a strong opinion one way or the other?)

For me, if I watched clips of Russian names being pronounced with a Western accent, I might think: "That's not how it's pronounced in Russian..."

Maybe for Japanese, as an example, this is not the same. Or maybe I am analyzing this too closely?

 

[ice coverage]

I am trying to gauge opinions on which approach to use for these clips. (Maybe, from your post, you do not have a strong opinion one way or the other?)

For me, if I watched clips of Russian names being pronounced with a Western accent, I might think: "That's not how it's pronounced in Russian..."

Maybe for Japanese, as an example, this is not the same. Or maybe I am analyzing this too closely?

Not sure if you have seen what I was editing into my post above regarding my opinion -- at the same that you were responding to the original part of my post.

If I were contributing to making the videos, maybe I would take a different approach than yours in some cases.

But I am not making videos, and you are making them out of the goodness of your heart, so whatever feels good to you is OK by me.

Thanks again, sabinfire.

 

[sabinfire]

If I were contributing to making the videos, maybe I would take a different approach than yours in some cases.

Well, I make the edits for GS (and doris), so I wouldn't necessarily think my preferences matter most. If you have suggestions, feel free to share them. I was hoping that my earlier posts in this topic sounded more open to feedback on this project.

I am not particularly familiar with many languages in the ISU, so I would probably defer to others who might be.

 

[ice coverage]

Well, I make the edits for GS (and doris), so I wouldn't necessarily think my preferences matter most. If you have suggestions, feel free to share them. I was hoping that my earlier posts in this topic sounded more open to feedback on this project.

I am not particularly familiar with many languages in the ISU, so I would probably defer to others who might be.

Well ... since you are interested in feedback:

If "English-friendly" pronunciations that skaters themselves use are the goal, IMO it should be a consistent goal for the names of all skaters, no matter their country of origin.

Or ... if pronunciations that skaters would use for an audience of speakers of their native language are the goal, IMO it should be a consistent goal for the names of all skaters, no matter their country of origin.

If I had to choose one or the other, my personal preference would be for the latter.

But again, I'm not trying to impose my preference on you or anyone else.

[My bkgd/perspective/bias includes studying Russian in school as well as growing up hearing Japanese and Chinese at home. With English as my first language.]

 

[sabinfire]

The problem is, it is difficult enough to find a single good example of a skater saying their full name, let alone multiple variations. AFAIK, the links you recently posted of Satoko and Yuzuru are the only two examples in this thread that offer the name in both their native language and in English.

Also, I don't spend a whole lot of time watching media/interviews in languages I cannot understand.

 

[dorispulaski]

I have no problem listing two versions, and explaining when two versions are shown why there are two versions.

I don't speak Russian, Chinese or Japanese. I can more or less figure out what's going on in French and German, but I would not claim I really speak them.

I am finding it interesting the different ways people say their names even in English!

And I can't thank you both enough for all your help on this project.

 

[ice coverage]

deleted

 

[ice coverage]

The problem is, it is difficult enough to find a single good example of a skater saying their full name, let alone multiple variations. AFAIK, the links you recently posted of Satoko and Yuzuru are the only two examples in this thread that offer the name in both their native language and in English.

Also, I don't spend a whole lot of time watching media/interviews in languages I cannot understand.

I give up, sabinfire.

Duhhhh ... of course I understand COMPETELY (eta, sorry for my typo :hopelessness:: completely, that is) that it is difficult enough to find a single good example of a skater saying her/his full name.

In the cases of Satoko and Yuzuru, it so happened that a second version for each fell into my lap ... as I was looking for Rika Hongo's name (which I did not find, although I found other "new" Team Japan names).

You commented that the second versions did not seem like "best examples" to you. I replied that my purpose in posting the second versions was not to "anoint" them as best examples.

I have bent over backward to make clear that I am not trying to insist on any particular way of carrying out Doris' vision.
Quite the contrary. My instinct has been and continues to be to defer to you, b/c I believe that as the volunteer stepping up to make the videos, you deserve to use your own judgment.

You kept saying that you were interested in opinions from others, so finally I gave you mine.
And I believe that you indicated in a previous post in this thread that you want to serve the entire multinational membership of GS.
But you have trivialized my opinion by saying that you don't spend a lot of time on interviews in languages that you don't understand.

[ETA: Like you, I don't spend a lot of time on interviews in languages that I don't understand.
But I still am interested in authentic pronunciations of names from languages that I don't understand. YMMV.]​

I thank you again for all your efforts, sabinfire.
Thanks also to Doris.

Time for me to step away from this thread and from this project.

 

[sabinfire]

I'm not sure what happened here. It sounds like we are coming from two different places.

What I was attempting to say is: 'best version' is open to interpretation, depending on whether the viewer is expecting native pronunciation, or one spoken 'in English.' This would depend on one's familiarity with the languages, personal preferences, or just a desire to learn the authentic native pronunciation.

I am not certain which one is the aim for this project, so I brought it up for debate due to the differences in those pronunciations. I wasn't attempting to commentate on the value of different versions placed here. Since I don't edit these clips for my benefit, I asked for feedback.

But my two cents, for what they are worth, are that it seems somewhat arbitrary to me that you prefer Russian pronunciations that are as authentic as possible, whereas you prefer Japanese pronunciations that are "English-friendly."

Maybe not so arbitrary to me, because as you mentioned, I stated that I don't spend a whole lot of time on interviews in languages I don't understand. Meaning, if an interview is not in English or Russian, I am not likely to come across those pronunciations (unless they are specifically brought here).

For example: I quickly found the Satoko one because the interview was done in English, so that's the version I posted. If she spoke her name in a Japanese interview, I wouldn't have located it on my own.

Most Russian skaters do not conduct interviews in English very often, or if they do, they tend to be brief and don't mention their full name.

As for which version I prefer, it's more of a hypothetical rather than practice right now. I have never reached a potential decision point between using two different versions until today.

I am under the impression that my messages are coming across as dismissive or critical. Is this accurate? (That was not my intent.)

 

[TheGrandSophy]

As a funny aside, I have more than once had to confess to people in Shoma's thread or on tumblr / twitter that I have sat through a 9,10,11 minute video without having a clue what he is saying! I then beg for translations. Ah, the power of being a fan... Lol

I think it might be interesting to have an 'English' version and a target language version where possible, but that may not be available often and it will take a lot of guidance from native speakers in locating the exact phrase. Btw, I asked in Shoma's thread for one for him. Mikaboo has one with him saying "Uno Shoma" but it is quite indisctint as he is jumping at the time! So she is looking out for another video.

 

[cathlen]

Very nice thread

Here's Tomas Verner saying his name in Czech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFHbxmbBU6w I looked for it, because I heard his name being said this way before & he says his name in English differentely. I don't find this difficult, but maybe for non-slavic natives it might be.

Here's Michal Brezina saying his name: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApPpZQmPAxA It's a little qiuet, but I also found others Czechs saying his name for reference: no.1 no.2

Here are several skaters saying their names: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5zsk-2xArs

 

[dorispulaski]

Thank you cathlen!!!

I often wondered how those names should really be pronounced

The "More" button yielded the names of the skaters on the Yes to Equality video. posted by Sweden's synchro team, Team Surprise:

A big thank you to
Javier Fernandez,
Viktoria Helgesson,
Joshi Helgesson,
Anna Cappellini,
Luca Lanotte,
Tomas Verner,
Marigold Ice Unity (FIN),
Kristoffer Berntsson,
Valentina Marchei,
Ondrej Hotarek and
Florent Amodio for supporting the cause.

 

[sabinfire]

Nice finds!

Edited:

Tomas Verner
https://youtu.be/GHGX6C0C4iY

Joshi & Viktoria Helgesson
https://youtu.be/w-uUHWpo2d0

Michal Brezina
https://youtu.be/PDQ7zDty1MQ

Kanako Murakami
https://youtu.be/znyUqjdODok

 

[cathlen]

YT account who posted video with Michal has many others too: https://www.youtube.com/user/sk8fsjpn/videos?shelf_id=1&view=0&sort=dd
Reed siblings speaks their names in English here, as do others Japanese skaters.

Vidoes included: Daisuke Takahashi, the Reeds, Daisuke Murakami, Takahashi/Tran, Adam Rippon, Denis Ten, Evgeni Plushenko, Alena Leonova, Mirai Nagasu, Takeshi Honda, Yuzuru Hanyu, Paolo Bacchini, Hausch/Wende, Zhiganshina/Gazsi, Anton Kovalevski, Evora/Ladwig, Midori Ito, Stephane Lambiel, Brian Joubert, Michal Brezina, Pechalat/Bourzat, Florent Amodio, Kavaguti/Smirnov, Carolina Kostner, the Shibutanis, Savchenko/Szolkowy, Ilinykh/Katsalapov, Peter Liebers

 

[sabinfire]

Two I've been looking for!

Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov
https://youtu.be/kBM1WV2-xi8

Alena Leonova
https://youtu.be/1m2ctGIrGmo

 

[sabinfire]

Some new ones from Skate America (you would think someone who works for USFS and/or NBC stole our idea!):

Evgenia Medvedeva:
https://youtu.be/sxD9lODnIjk

Yulia Lipnitskaya:
https://youtu.be/1DngKhZKdSg

(I know there was a clip posted earlier in this thread with Yulia's name in an interview -- just posting another version for posterity, and to have a version in my own YouTube playlist.)

Gracie Gold, Karen Chen, and Satoko Miyahara were also featured, however, the versions previously posted in this thread from the USFS channel are just as good, so I didn't see a need to re-do those...

The entire short fluff piece is here:

https://youtu.be/kJMdmY_Tcnk

Thanks to golden411 for pointing out this piece on the NBC broadcast so I knew where to look for it on my recording.

 

[dorispulaski]

Thank you both. I used the skating friends supporting Japan videos as they are, since they are very short.