Help, pairs experts!

[doug_log]

I started a thread a while ago about lateral twists, and now I have some more questions.

Why doesn't CoP's scale of values include lateral twists? Is it now an illegal move? Brasseur and Eisler are the only pair that I am aware of who has done them (and triples, too!). They had a split twist lift (triple) and a lateral twist lift (triple) in their programs. The entrances to these two elements are very different, so I'm sure they're different moves.

Maybe they're listed under a different name. (Scott Hamilton called them as lateral twists, so that's why I'm using that term.)

Any insights would be great!

 

[Alsace]

Actually, Kitty and Peter Carruthers (sp?) invented the move, or were the first to perform, IIRC.

 

[JOHIO2]

I'd have to go back to see, but don't the Zhangs manage a very high lateral?

 

[doug_log]

JOHIO,

I think the Zhangs only do a split twist, not a lateral twist, too.

Could anyone answer my question about the lateral twist's exclusion from CoP?

Thanks!

 

[antmanb]

JOHIO,

I think the Zhangs only do a split twist, not a lateral twist, too.

Could anyone answer my question about the lateral twist's exclusion from CoP?

Thanks!

Can you describe what you mean by lateral, and how the two different moves compare?

Its my understanding that there are three entrances that can be used to do a split twist. The first (and i've never seen this one) is like a split falling leaf - the lady hits the pre take off position of a loop ie strong RBO edge, she jumps and her partner lifts and she hits the split as in the split falling leaf before doing the rotations. The other two are the ones more commonly seen in the pairs competition - the split flip or split lutz entrances.

As far as i was aware the only difference to calling it a lateral twist is that the lady is completely horizontal to the ice as she completes the rotations but the entrances are still the same. In this regard I think the Zhangs, Pang & Tong and Shen & Zhao all do split doubles in the lateral position and i think S&Z and the Zhangs also do the triples in the lateral position. Obertas and Slavnov also do the double in the lateral position and just about do the triple in the lateral position too.

The reason its so difficult is because you have to get a genuine delay on the entrance that allows the lady the time to hit the lateral position before the majority of the rotations are done. If you watch the lesser pairs doing the normal split twist the lady nearly does a fuly rotation with her partners hands still helping her and the release and catch is small. Compare that to either Obertas & Slavnov or Shen & Zhao's double twist in an and SP and you'll see the lady stays totally open doing maybe half a turn before hitting the horizontal followed by the rest of the rotation and then open out with a delay at the end as well.

Ant

 

[hockeyfan228]

It looked to me like Castile and Okolski do a lateral split twist as well. If this was the case for their SP double twist at TEB, then it is classified the same as a split twist, or they wouldn't have received credit for this mandatory element.

 

[Gwendolyn]

If I recall correctly the difference with a split twist and a lateral was the entrance. From what I can remember, Lloyd Eisler would bend down, pick up Isabelle as if doing that hip star-lift type thing, then when he had her above his head, would flip her over so that she would rotate into a lateral in which she was parallel to the ice directly over his head. I remember seeing slow-mos of it because during worlds after Lillehammer, she had a broken rib and they had to downgrade to a double only.

 

[dorispulaski]

In this year's version of COP, it is made clear that the split before the twist is optional, and adds to the level of the twist if the split is done. Twists got 4 levels this year instead of just number of rotations. This is why you are seeing a lot of the pairs that had trouble getting a clean 3twist doing 2twists with arms over their heads. They get about the the same number of points.

 

[doug_log]

If I recall correctly the difference with a split twist and a lateral was the entrance. From what I can remember, Lloyd Eisler would bend down, pick up Isabelle as if doing that hip star-lift type thing, then when he had her above his head, would flip her over so that she would rotate into a lateral in which she was parallel to the ice directly over his head. I remember seeing slow-mos of it because during worlds after Lillehammer, she had a broken rib and they had to downgrade to a double only.

Gwendolyn,

Thanks for describing B/E's lateral so well. THAT is the move I am wondering about. Because of its entrance, it is definitely not a split twist without the split. It's a very different move.

The man is responsible for pretty much all the pre-twisting work. He lifts the woman into the air, and they lose contact when she is ABOVE his head, not while she is going up like in the split twist.

Someone mentioned that the Kitty and Peter invented it.

Is this move considered a normal twist lift in CoP?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

GS Posters - All Pairs questions are answered by our resident pairs fan: Doris. Listen to her, she can tell the differences between all those convoluted lifts; their take-offs, their positions in the air; their landings and she knows all the rules concerning Pairs.

Doris is the best, imo

Joe

 

[doug_log]

GS Posters - All Pairs questions are answered by our resident pairs fan: Doris. Listen to her, she can tell the differences between all those convoluted lifts; their take-offs, their positions in the air; their landings and she knows all the rules concerning Pairs.

Doris is the best, imo

Joe

Thanks for the referral, Joe. So Doris, any insights?

Thanks for explaining the new changes involving twist lifts. But there are two different twist lifts! At least two different kinds were allowed when B/E and Kitty and Peter did them. So what gives? Was the lateral twist (as defined by Gwendolyn in her post and as called by Scott Hamilton at the 1994 OGs) made illegal? Was it forgotten when CoP was developed? Or is it now, DESPITE ITS VERY DIFFERENT ENTRANCE AND AIR POSITION, considered in the same category as the twist lifts?