Hersh on Plushenko/Russian Natls Scoring

[jennylovskt]

You're right, he did complain loudly about a quadless win after his loss of the 2008 world title.
Nevertheless, I don't see how it's such a big whoop, he consistently kept saying I wanna be beaten by a guy daring to do quads. Of course it's a shame that the quad is virtually disappeared because of its still unfairly low base value and I feel it should be addressed more often.

:agree: Many skaters now use other elements to compensate the jumps and make up the scores. It has made figure skating less sport and more performance. I agree with Brian Joubert 100% that it is not good for men's skating.

Some of these skaters have to realize that Cop is about scoring the most points and not only about one jump.

Doing a quad doesn't mean you automatically win anything. You have to score the most points to win. What part of that is so hard for Joubert to understand :scratch:

If there is NO quad jumps, there is no point to talk about the "one jump". There is none. It doesn't automatically win anything but you have to at least do it in order to match the number one title, instead of making up points from other places. Are we compete for the best athlete or the best dancer?! What part of that is so hard for you to understand?:scratch:

 

[janetfan]

:

If there is NO quad jumps, there is no point to talk about the "one jump". There is none. It doesn't automatically win anything but you have to at least do it, instead of making up points from other places. What part of that is so hard for you to understand?:scratch:

It is easy to understand - just read the rules :yes:

It sounds like some fans want rules to be adjusted to help their favorite skater.
Maybe loud screams from young girls should be worth more points too.

If the rules state that every male skater must attempt a quad then the guys will all attempt a quad. Can you tell where in the IJS it says the guys must attempt a quad :scratch:

 

[jennylovskt]

It is easy to understand - just read the rules :yes:

If the rules state that every male skater must attempt a quad then the guys will all attempt a quad. Can you tell where in the IJS it says the guys must attempt a quad :scratch:

That's the point. That's what Brian was talking about all those years! The rule needs to be changed to reflect the importance of the quad. I actually like the Russian Nationals idea of adding bonus points for the skaters who do the quad jumps.:agree:

 

[schiele]

That's the point. That's what Brian was talking about all those years! The rule needs to be changed to reflect the importance of the quad. I actually like the Russian Nationals idea of adding bonus points for the skaters who do the quad jumps.:agree:

And 3+3 combos for ladies. I think it's a great idea. Without proper bonus for risky elements, why would they risk it?
If I'm not mistaken, there are two (regular) jumps (I'm talking no doubles here) whose base value was adjusted since 2004.. 3A and 4T.. The most two difficult jumps currently executed by skaters.. Why the adjustments were needed for the two most difficult jumps, one must wonder..
Besides I don't understand why it is such a crime to give jumps the deserved credit or wanting to see skaters progress to landing more difficult jumps/combos, just as much as we like to see faster/more difficult spins and footwork?

 

[Medusa]

Besides I don't understand why it is such a crime to give jumps the deserved credit or wanting to see skaters progress to landing more difficult jumps/combos, just as much as we like to see faster/more difficult spins and footwork?

It's a crime because - we are a bunch of morons who don't get the true beauty of skating and all hate Canada?

 

[Buttercup]

Obviously I'm not strong enough to stay away from the quad debates. I even registered at GS for this very reason . My first post, which still sums up my thoughts on this matter nicely, includes this:

What bothers me about the direction this debate is taking is the implication that a skater can either be a soulless quad machine or an artistic skater who can't quite do certain jumps. I'd rather combine the points I think Joubert and Buttle were getting at: that an elite skater should be doing the hardest jumps - those being quads - but that these should be part of a complete repertoire of skating skills and elements. It's not mutually exclusive - just more difficult.

The rule needs to be changed to reflect the importance of the quad. I actually like the Russian Nationals idea of adding bonus points for the skaters who do the quad jumps.:agree:

Oh god, no. Raise the base value, make +GOEs the same as -GOEs, but do not start with bonuses. Yuck.

Your disdain is not misplaced, feel free to keep it. Your memory and mine jive--read this from 2008 Worlds--widely reported in other sources as well. Joubert's thoughts are in the middle of the piece.

Once you get past the rather hysterical tone of the article, it's basically the same thing he said in 2007.

2007 - Brian and the other medalists all do quads in their LPs. Brian's reaction - "the quad still isn't worth enough points! More men should do quads!"
2008 - Brian loses to a quadless Buttle. Brian's reaction - "the quad still isn't worth enough points! More men should do quads!"

The only difference is that in 2008 he related it to Buttle's win. It's still the same argument he has made in just about every interview he's given in the last five years. It's not a reaction to disappointing results, it's a consistent reaction to the system, if not always a well-expressed one. Remember that Brian is not a native speaker of English and he sometimes struggles with expressing his thoughts in interviews.

It's a crime because - we are a bunch of morons who don't get the true beauty of skating and all hate Canada?

I like Canada. It's pretty there, and i love to skate is one of the nicer people here, though we have yet to find a single skater we agree on. Maybe some day...

 

[i love to skate]

I like Canada. It's pretty there, and i love to skate is one of the nicer people here, though we have yet to find a single skater we agree on. Maybe some day...

Well we both do like V/M! So we have one dance team. Now if we could only find a man with both like....how about Kozuka??

 

[Medusa]

I like Canada. It's pretty there, and i love to skate is one of the nicer people here, though we have yet to find a single skater we agree on. Maybe some day...

I like Canada, too. They speak French there, always a plus . And I like most Canadians I know.

This has never been "anti-Canada". If it comes over as anti-Canada - that may have something to do with the unfortunate addition of events during the last 12 months or so. With Chan's extraordinary shyness and tactfulness in front of the camera, that weird anti-gay campaign, the sudden explosion of certain PC scores, the ganging-up against certain skaters during CBC broadcasts (just listen to German / British Eurosport commentary versus the CBC commentary during Ando's freeskate at Worlds - different opinions is one thing, but they were definitely trying to dumb Ando's skate down in order to make Rochette's tentative skate look better --- which came over as simply ridiculous since Ando got a big freaking standing ovation), the completely unnecessary personal jabs in the press against Joubert and Plushenko by e.g. Chan or Browning. Or how some skaters pretend that they want to save the sport, but only point out injustice if they are affected.

Rant over. It's such a good thing there is no reputation feature on these boards.

 

[Nadine]

Read the articles, not the thread, and IMHO Evgeni is obviously not their cup of tea, lol. So I took what they had to say with a grain of salt, as I do all media really.

That said, my opinion is that Hersh's article was worthless & biased, U.S. Nationals also is overscored, but he doesn't write about that of course. And the same goes for Beverly Smith. But I would add if there is going to be a scandal it will most likely come from Canada, as it did in 2002, especially if they don't win a gold medal. *pout*

 

[Buttercup]

I like Canada, too. They speak French there, always a plus . And I like most Canadians I know.

This has never been "anti-Canada". If it comes over as anti-Canada - that may have something to do with the unfortunate addition of events during the last 12 months or so. With Chan's extraordinary shyness and tactfulness in front of the camera, that weird anti-gay campaign, the sudden explosion of certain PC scores, the ganging-up against certain skaters during CBC broadcasts (just listen to German / British Eurosport commentary versus the CBC commentary during Ando's freeskate at Worlds - different opinions is one thing, but they were definitely trying to dumb Ando's skate down in order to make Rochette's tentative skate look better --- which came over as simply ridiculous since Ando got a big freaking standing ovation), the completely unnecessary personal jabs in the press against Joubert and Plushenko by e.g. Chan or Browning. Or how some skaters pretend that they want to save the sport, but only point out injustice if they are affected.

Rant over. It's such a good thing there is no reputation feature on these boards.

I understand how people on each side of the Atlantic can perceive skaters and skating differently - because of differences in media coverage and cultural preferences, among other things. I agree that there have been some unfortunate comments from a certain Canadian skater and from some in the Canadian media (Browning, FWIW, has toned it down recently). I do hope that those in the media, as well as Skate Canada and its officials, will treat all skaters with respect in the coming weeks. Same goes for everyone here, of course.

Well we both do like V/M! So we have one dance team. Now if we could only find a man with both like....how about Kozuka??

Oh right! So that's technically two skaters... :yes:. No can do on Kozuka, I tried but his skating is just not my cup of tea. I nominate Jeremy Abbott and Tomas Verner; your thoughts?

 

[Medusa]

Oh right! So that's technically two skaters... :yes:. No can do on Kozuka, I tried but his skating is just not my cup of tea. I nominate Jeremy Abbott and Tomas Verner; your thoughts?

You don't like Taka? How is that even possible? I just might have to unfriend you. Kidding of course. I think. But I am on the Abbott and Verner boat, 100%! You like the Zebra too, don't you? Come to think of it, I could change my signature again. I am done being mad with Switzerland. Stéphane can come back! Bye Jeff, bye Brian!

 

[i love to skate]

Oh right! So that's technically two skaters... :yes:. No can do on Kozuka, I tried but his skating is just not my cup of tea. I nominate Jeremy Abbott and Tomas Verner; your thoughts?

Abbott has been growing on me - i LOVED his exhibition from Skate Canada. It was so neat and the choreo was fantastic! Verner frustrates me so much! When he skates well he is great and I think that he has a sense of humour. Let's go with Abbott! Oh and we do both agree about Evan too

A general comment on Chan - he very well may have a large ego, have said some nasty things, and therefore he may come across as arrogant, a brat, or a jerk. However, he is extremely talented and many athletes display these characteristics. It isn't unique to him.

Medusa, you do realize you could apply a lot of what you said about Canadian athletes, media, etc to other countries, right? Perhaps you should look up all the good Skate Canada and the athletes do as well. Examples, Joannie Rochette working with World Vision, raising money for charities, donating their time to skate with and give lessons to children - including some underprivileged ones, run seminars, etc. Just a thought.

 

[Buttercup]

You don't like Taka? How is that even possible? I just might have to unfriend you. Kidding of course. I think. But I am on the Abbott and Verner boat, 100%! You like the Zebra too, don't you? Come to think of it, I could change my signature again. I am done being mad with Switzerland. Stéphane can come back! Bye Jeff, bye Brian!

I tried so hard. But our relationship just isn't working. It's not you, Takahiko, it's me :no:.

Stephane - I admire more than like, if that makes sense. He's so good when he's on, but I've been a Joubert fan since 2002 and a Brian fan I shall remain!

Abbott has been growing on me - i LOVED his exhibition from Skate Canada. It was so neat and the choreo was fantastic! Verner frustrates me so much! When he skates well he is great and I think that he has a sense of humour. Let's go with Abbott! Oh and we do both agree about Evan too

Success!!! Evan doesn't count for this purpose...

I think Chan and to a lesser extent Scott Moir are the only two Canadian skaters that have been out of line with their comments at times; Chan especially needs to learn that some thoughts are best kept to himself.

 

[Medusa]

A general comment on Chan - he very well may have a large ego, have said some nasty things, and therefore he may come across as arrogant, a brat, or a jerk. However, he is extremely talented and many athletes display these characteristics. It isn't unique to him.

Medusa, you do realize you could apply a lot of what you said about Canadian athletes, media, etc to other countries, right? Perhaps you should look up all the good Skate Canada and the athletes do as well. Examples, Joannie Rochette working with World Vision, raising money for charities, skating and giving lessons to children - including some underprivileged ones. Just a thought.

I like Joannie. She doesn't necessarily (I just never know how to spell that word) excite me, but she has some nice qualities to her skating, keeps herself out of the Asian skating wars, her new short program is just fabulous. I also love the Beetle, sorry, the Buttle. Though his exhibitions were mostly more pleasing than his competitive programs, he had this thing going on that when he got nervous, he lost his magic.

And yes, I know I could apply it to other countries as well - e.g. the French commentary to Dom/Shab or other rivals of French skaters can be ridiculous as well. But I somehow can ignore that better. If Browning starts spewing nonsense though, it just angers me so much. He is like a big authority in skating, one of the best of all time. Is it really necessary that he is so biased, sometimes illogical and personal?

 

[i love to skate]

And yes, I know I could apply it to other countries as well - e.g. the French commentary to Dom/Shab or other rivals of French skaters can be ridiculous as well. But I somehow can ignore that better. If Browning starts spewing nonsense though, it just angers me so much. He is like a big authority in skating, one of the best of all time. Is it really necessary that he is so biased, sometimes illogical and personal?

When does he start spewing nonsense though? The only time I have heard him say something that was personal was in regards to one of Joubert's programs where he pointed out that it took Brian three days to master one step. Was it unnecessary? Probably. To me it sounded more like frustration than anything else - this was also quite a few years ago I think too. His commentary has improved a lot and I really enjoy listening to his input.

I don't take his comments as biased - when he says amazingly good things about Chan it's because it's true. He's worked with the kid and is now his mentor. Kurt knows talent when he sees it. He also points out Chan's difficulties with the triple axel and points out some of his technical flaws - such as he did during his Skate Canada performance.

 

[schiele]

When does he start spewing nonsense though? The only time I have heard him say something that was personal was in regards to one of Joubert's programs where he pointed out that it took Brian three days to master one step. Was it unnecessary? Probably. To me it sounded more like frustration than anything else - this was also quite a few years ago I think too. His commentary has improved a lot and I really enjoy listening to his input.

I don't take his comments as biased - when he says amazingly good things about Chan it's because it's true. He's worked with the kid and is now his mentor. Kurt knows talent when he sees it. He also points out Chan's difficulties with the triple axel and points out some of his technical flaws - such as he did during his Skate Canada performance.

I think it was more after Brian made those hasty comments about a quadless win at 2008.. Isn't it the incident after which they fell out? Btw, I'm seriously asking, why did they fall out cos I haven't learned the answer to this day. They were speaking so highly of each other shortly before? Is it just Brian's comments that came off as real insult to Canadian skaters???
On a different topic, who actually blames Canada apart from South Park? I happen to love many Canadian skaters; Stojko, Browning, Cranston, Rochette (looove the new SP ).. But the commentary I heard at last year's worlds from CBC was really not nice. I wish the whole world could listen to Nicky and Chris or the German Eurosport guy (don't know his name) to be able to enjoy commentated boradcasting..
Oh and I tried to get into Chan's skating and I can definetely see the quality.. But his ego and his mouth is simply blinding my eyes most of the time..
B, I am with you. I also tried Kozuko but 'no can do' here as well..

 

[Buttercup]

When does he start spewing nonsense though? The only time I have heard him say something that was personal was in regards to one of Joubert's programs where he pointed out that it took Brian three days to master one step. Was it unnecessary? Probably. To me it sounded more like frustration than anything else - this was also quite a few years ago I think too. His commentary has improved a lot and I really enjoy listening to his input.

Browning had some over the top comments about Joubert during 2009 Worlds. But more recently, he said he was happy to see Joubert back in form at NHK, and posted on his Twitter feed after Brian's injury wishing him the best with his recovery, or something like that (I don't think I saw any references to it by anyone other than Kurt and Tomas Verner).

Btw, I'm seriously asking, why did they fall out cos I haven't learned the answer to this day. They were speaking so highly of each other shortly before? Is it just Brian's comments that came off as real insult to Canadian skaters???

I wonder if it wasn't mostly different personalities and work styles. I remember Kurt once mentioning that Brian would give him almost no notice about when he was coming in for choreo or his choice of music. Well, never mind - Brian seems to be doing well with DenStavs. Though I must say, I really liked All For You.

But the commentary I heard at last year's worlds from CBC was really not nice. I wish the whole world could listen to Nicky and Chris or the German Eurosport guy (don't know his name) to be able to enjoy commentated boradcasting..

Yes! Make everyone watch skating with Chris and Nicky/Simon as the commentators!

The CBC people - who was it, Kurt and Tracy? - seemed to enjoy P/B's Andy EX.

 

[schiele]

I wonder if it wasn't mostly different personalities and work styles. I remember Kurt once mentioning that Brian would give him almost no notice about when he was coming in for choreo or his choice of music. Well, never mind - Brian seems to be doing well with DenStavs. Though I must say, I really liked All For You.

Yes! Make everyone watch skating with Chris and Nicky/Simon as the commentators!

The CBC people - who was it, Kurt and Tracy? - seemed to enjoy P/B's Andy EX.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I guess it all added up, including Brian's comments.
I loved both All for you and Apocalyptica-Metallica thingy. Nevertheless, I am also contented so far with this season's LP. :agree:

I think CBC commentators were Tracy and Kurt indeed. While I was more ok with Kurt (most of the time), Tracy really pushed my buttons. I think it's easier to be less critical on exhibitions, no?
Btw, I keep forgetting Simon while mentioning British Eurosport guys.. So my also to him..

PS: Does my Tomas look like (how shall I put it nicely) a person with low IQ on that avatar??

 

[i love to skate]

I think CBC commentators were Tracy and Kurt indeed. While I was more ok with Kurt (most of the time), Tracy really pushed my buttons. I think it's easier to be less critical on exhibitions, no?

What did Tracy say? She is spot on a lot of the time and is very positive in regards to skaters.

PS: Does my Tomas look like (how shall I put it nicely) a person with low IQ on that avatar??

I love your picture in your signature. Although, I have to say that it's a good thing Lambiel is wearing that Zebra costume - otherwise I would have had no clue who it was

 

[schiele]

What did Tracy say? She is spot on a lot of the time and is very positive in regards to skaters.

I know she has a very sweet voice and talks carefully. I don't remember most of it by now but I remember vividly that she thought Ando's skating was void (of course she didn't use that word specifically but that's what she indicated) and couldn't see why it should be special or smth. (Please don't quote me on these, I'm just saying how it came off).. She also critisized Fumie, saying she didn't like the direction she took with Morozov, the style she's trying now doesn't work for her at all and etc etc.. Although no nasty things said, it all came too critical for anybody from the other side of the world, while NA skaters were praised over and over.. So at the end of the broadcast, I was left with a very bitter taste in my mouth.. It never happens to me when I watch European Eurosports (British, German or Russian) so even then (before anybody mentioned anyhing about the quality of commentary) I thought it was off... Btw, of course one's own skaters should be praised but there's a very fine but definete line before you go over the top. I think the overall commentary quality from your continent is dismal, which is a shame.