Hersh on Plushenko/Russian Natls Scoring

[ImaginaryPogue]

I totally derailed this thread.

1. jennylovskt, I've wondered about that. But according to most protocols, more men land the quad jump than do level four footwork (though Buttercup and I have had this conversation in the past, and admittedly, the rules of level four are so stringent that very few competitors can get there - I think Chan and Takahashi are the only current skaters to do so). I remember asking you if you felt that someone like Timothy Goebel should then be rated above someone like Jeff Buttle/Patrick Chan and you said no, but I have to admit that I don't understand how to fix the problem (because you think that the champion should have a quad but simulataneously don't think it should be a deal breaker. Or something. I still don't get it)

2. But I think the very definition of sour grapes is what Joubert did: complain about a loss, either by criticizing your opponent (which he did by saying Buttle did a "safe program") or by criticizing the system (it's not me that's flawed, it's the rules). The fact that he does it consistently doesn't really change that to me. Especially because, as I understand it, Joubert basically dumbed down his program too much because he underestimated Buttle's ability to win without a quad (and he had a disappointing season regarding injury).

3. Back to the original subject, people say that there's always Nationals inflation (and there is, in virtually all nations), but why is that the case? Is it simply cheerleading? Is it a way to indicate that yes - these guys are of medal calibre and we want you to remember them? If we don't see that, do we assume that their medal chances are dead (see Kostner).

4. The British Eurosport guys are great. Prone to enthusiasm when merited but still clear eyed. Anyone else find it funny that the guys we praise happen to come from a nation that doesn't really have a strong CURRENT figure skating tradition (who would be the last skaters, any discipline, before the Kerrs in the top ten at worlds/Olympics?). That said, why should announcers be objective? They're fans of figure skating, right? What fan of figure skating is objective? I would hope they'd be honest about the fact that they were subjective, instead of hiding behind that facade (CBC on Ando is a great example a failed pretense at objectivity, imo.)

5. I dunno - I thought it was pretty obvious Jeff had won: 3 combinations to 2, for starters; two triple axels to one. The biggest surprise was that he came second on PCS

6. The big thing that bugs me about all this is what I mentioned previously: all these conspiracies and pre-emptive strikes seems solely designed to (a) pump up our own favourites and (b) dismiss the contenders as genuine threats and/or diminish their performance if they happen to win. Hersh and Smith here, for example. And then, of course, it renders illegitimate genuine complaints that COULD happen (but we'd have to actually watch the skating first before coming up with an opinion).

 

[plushyta]

4. The British Eurosport guys are great. Prone to enthusiasm when merited but still clear eyed. Anyone else find it funny that the guys we praise happen to come from a nation that doesn't really have a strong CURRENT figure skating tradition ....

But have a British tradition of "fair play" .. same as they commenting, for example: tennis - it is similar the "school of comment" - no offense, with emphasis on what is good and beautiful .. simple - enjoy in the view, as any ordinary viewer.

6. The big thing that bugs me about all this is what I mentioned previously: all these conspiracies and pre-emptive strikes seems solely designed to (a) pump up our own favourites and (b) dismiss the contenders as genuine threats and/or diminish their performance if they happen to win. Hersh and Smith here, for example.....

... and Chan, and Lori Nichol, and Browing...

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

... sigh - Chan's comments bug me the most.

 

[i love to skate]

... sigh - Chan's comments bug me the most.

Like I previously pointed out - the majority of athletes have large egos, say some not so nice things, and come across as arrogant. Why do we hold figure skaters to a different standard?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I don't hold them to a different standard - I dislike all large egos. Except my own. But I'm not an athlete, so it's okay.

 

[plushyta]

Like I previously pointed out - the majority of athletes have large egos, say some not so nice things, and come across as arrogant. Why do we hold figure skaters to a different standard?

The problem is if someone has BIG ego, with small coverage

 

[jennylovskt]

I totally derailed this thread.

1. jennylovskt, I've wondered about that. But according to most protocols, more men land the quad jump than do level four footwork (though Buttercup and I have had this conversation in the past, and admittedly, the rules of level four are so stringent that very few competitors can get there - I think Chan and Takahashi are the only current skaters to do so). I remember asking you if you felt that someone like Timothy Goebel should then be rated above someone like Jeff Buttle/Patrick Chan and you said no, but I have to admit that I don't understand how to fix the problem (because you think that the champion should have a quad but simulataneously don't think it should be a deal breaker. Or something. I still don't get it)

Thank you for your thoughtful questions. I am trying to understand the meanings in your long post. A year back, we have talked about the "wow factors" in skating in a thread. I think quad is a big wow factor. That's why that it's more grabbing than level four footworks. What I and many quad fans like is not just the jumps. It's the perfect combination and harmony of artistry (including high level footworks) and the highest level jumps. I am a perfectionist in many ways. What I really wanted, the closest I have seen, was only during Alexei Yagudin and Plushenko era. (I'm trying to jump pass that) Timothy Goebel was an example of a jumping mechine. His skating hardly represented the highest level of skating. Later on when he lost his jumps, he had nothing.

2. But I think the very definition of sour grapes is what Joubert did: complain about a loss, either by criticizing your opponent (which he did by saying Buttle did a "safe program") or by criticizing the system (it's not me that's flawed, it's the rules). The fact that he does it consistently doesn't really change that to me. Especially because, as I understand it, Joubert basically dumbed down his program too much because he underestimated Buttle's ability to win without a quad (and he had a disappointing season regarding injury).

Buttle didn't do a quad. He has won rightfully (I am happy for him. I love his skating!) but it was unfortunate to the sport. Joubert said what he thought and what he thought was all correct at the time to me, unlike Chan a year later.

3. Back to the original subject, people say that there's always Nationals inflation (and there is, in virtually all nations), but why is that the case? Is it simply cheerleading? Is it a way to indicate that yes - these guys are of medal calibre and we want you to remember them? If we don't see that, do we assume that their medal chances are dead (see Kostner).

:scratch: Nationals score inflation is the fact in almost all countries.

It doesn't affect much his/her international scores later in the same season. We've seen that the National silver medalist Bradley bumped at the worlds, and next year the National bronze medalist Lysacek won the worlds.

5. I dunno - I thought it was pretty obvious Jeff had won: 3 combinations to 2, for starters; two triple axels to one. The biggest surprise was that he came second on PCS

We pretend that we know something about PCS. We actually don't know. After all these year, even the most enthusiastic skating fans don't get it. That's another factor to drag the interests down among general populations.

Yes, Buttle won. But it's a bitter sweet win from my part.

 

[Buttercup]

But I think the very definition of sour grapes is what Joubert did: complain about a loss, either by criticizing your opponent (which he did by saying Buttle did a "safe program") or by criticizing the system (it's not me that's flawed, it's the rules). The fact that he does it consistently doesn't really change that to me. Especially because, as I understand it, Joubert basically dumbed down his program too much because he underestimated Buttle's ability to win without a quad (and he had a disappointing season regarding injury).

I'm leaving aside 2008 Worlds, because it's been rehashed endlessly here, except to note the following: 1. Joubert was sick, not injured, for much of that season, and I'm not sure he was fully recovered at Worlds 2. Jeff himself, while waiting for his marks, wasn't sure he'd won - so I think anyone else who had doubts can be excused (FWIW, I knew who won, though I still feel the margin was too big).

With that out of the way... I think if a skater makes the same comments about the system regardless of his results, one can take it as evidence that said skater thinks the system is flawed, not that he's looking to place the blame for disappointing results on others. In Brian's case, he believes that quads are important and are currently undervalued, and he has been saying it for at least five years now (see his GS interviews, for instance).

Since even some of the skaters who can do quads do them very selectively, I would say Joubert is spot on: the rules are flawed. To use your footwork example: most skaters are capable of level 3 step sequences*, so the equivalent of what's happening with the quad would be for skaters to make a conscious decision to only do level 1s, for whatever reason (who other than KvdP has done that?). The risk and reward make the quad a losing proposition for too many skaters right now, and I agree with Brian (and Jenny) that this is bad for skating.

Finally, it's legitimate for skaters to point out in what ways the system may not be working, whether it's Stephane being unhappy about how spins are evaluated, or Nathalie Pechalat arguing that too many ice dance teams are being encouraged to do similar lifts, or Johnny being critical of certain things. I wish more skaters would share their thoughts with us on the scoring system rather than their thoughts about the way the other competitors are scored.

The big thing that bugs me about all this is what I mentioned previously: all these conspiracies and pre-emptive strikes seems solely designed to (a) pump up our own favourites and (b) dismiss the contenders as genuine threats and/or diminish their performance if they happen to win. Hersh and Smith here, for example. And then, of course, it renders illegitimate genuine complaints that COULD happen (but we'd have to actually watch the skating first before coming up with an opinion).

Absolutely :agree:.

Like I previously pointed out - the majority of athletes have large egos, say some not so nice things, and come across as arrogant. Why do we hold figure skaters to a different standard?

What if two months ago it had been Plushenko saying that he watched Chan's programs with Mishin and they both laughed because the jump content was what Plushy was doing at age 12? Would that have been reasonable because Plushenko has the competitive record to back up a huge ego? Of course not. Certain things are okay to say if you're a fan but not if you're a skater.

What Chan said last season and even this year was excessive, esp. considering he was commenting about skaters who were considerably more accomplished than himself. Jeremy Abbott recently said that he respects Plsuehnko but views him as "another competitor". That's fine. Patrick Chan said he laughed at Plushenko's programs. That's inappropriate. That's not to say that skaters have to be 100% positive all the time, but they do need to think twice before saying certain things and to be careful with the way they express themselves. Of course, it's human to make mistakes - but Chan seems to be making the same mistakes repeatedly, and that doesn't reflect well on him.

how can someone dont like Kozuka?I m waiting Plush to retire and I will fully dedicate to himHe is not in my dream podium now mostly because he is too young, but for Sochi he will be, as well as Amodio.

Will I never be forgiven? I just don't get him. He's adorable but his skating just doesn't do anything for me. Sorry.

Is Kozuka the one who once said that a gold medal is the perfect accessory for a plain outfit? I know someone said something like that, and I thought it was really funny.

My current dream Sochi podium, assuming all the over twenty guys will retire between now and then, and in no specific order: Brezina, Amodio, Yuzuru Hanyu/Denis Ten.

*ETA: ImaginaryPogue (that's too long, we need an abbreviation), to answer your question on who has gotten level 4 among current skaters: add Plushenko (2006 Olys) and Carolina Kostner (2008 NHK) to your list. Personally, I often find high level step sequences less visually appealing than lower level ones, and I think step sequence levels are something that needs to be reconsidered. They're becoming repetitive and boring.

 

[deedeelocks]

PS: Does my Tomas look like (how shall I put it nicely) a person with low IQ on that avatar??

OMG! it's so funny! You'd show it to Tomas

 

[i love to skate]

That's inappropriate. That's not to say that skaters have to be 100% positive all the time, but they do need to think twice before saying certain things and to be careful with the way they express themselves. Of course, it's human to make mistakes - but Chan seems to be making the same mistakes repeatedly, and that doesn't reflect well on him.

But that's my point. Athletes usually engage in "trash talk" before a playoff game, bad blood exists between teams, you have hockey players laughing when a player from the other team accidently scores on his own net, there is even footage of Yagudin celebrating when Plushenko fell on a jump which secured Yags victory many years ago.

Athletes usually engage in this behaviour, so why do we hold skaters to a different standard? When competitive juices start flowing, athletes say and do things that would not be seen as acceptable in everyday life.

 

[Medusa]

But that's my point. Athletes usually engage in "trash talk" before a playoff game, bad blood exists between teams, you have hockey players laughing when a player from the other team accidently scores on his own net, there is even footage of Yagudin celebrating when Plushenko fell on a jump which secured Yags victory many years ago.

Athletes usually engage in this behaviour, so why do we hold skaters to a different standard? When competitive juices start flowing, athletes say and do things that would not be seen as acceptable in everyday life.

I don't think that the Yagudin story is fair game here. He was filmed in the actual moment, it is rather difficult to see the big picture when you just found out you won / lost etc. I mean, you often see it with children - when they are congratulated on something and their classmate / friend / sibling is at the same time criticised, they often tend to be gleeful in that particular moment. But that doesn't mean that they are bad or mean kids, or that they don't like their friends / siblings / classmates. I think that Yagudin in that particular moment was just incredibly happy that he won, a feeling that shortly overwhelmed other concerns, e.g. that he prefers to win because he is the best and not because others fall.

I would even file Joubert's 2008 reaction under this. Most of the "offensive" stuff he said was during the press conference, directly after the competition. He was mad - probably at everything, and just clang to that idea that the Quad should have saved him etc.

But actually going to the press, telling a story about how you spent a fun day with your internationally renowned choreographer on the couch, watched your competitor's programs and laughed at him together? Come on, that's something different.

I have no problem if they are playing popeye in front of the press, show off a bit. They have to believe that they are the best, that on an excellent day they are unbeatable. They wouldn't be any good as competitive performance athletes otherwise. They can go to the press and say "I will beat everyone in Vancouver, I have the goods, my skating is of such high quality that on a good day, nobody can beat me. Brian Joubert may have the Quads, but I still think that if I am in top form, I will beat him, because of my superior ... (spins, edges, footwork, program structure...)." I have absolutely no problem with that.

 

[i love to skate]

But actually going to the press, telling a story about how you spent a fun day with your internationally renowned choreographer on the couch, watched your competitor's programs and laughed at him together? Come on, that's something different.

Yes, it is something different. It's trash talk. It's not nice but it is part of sport. You see it a million times with hockey players, football players, etc. They put the newspaper articles that include some insulting or not so nice words by the opponent up on the board in the locker room for extra motivation.

 

[Mathman]

I don't think that the Yagudin story is fair game here. He was filmed in the actual moment, it is rather difficult to see the big picture when you just found out you won / lost etc...

Michelle Kwan once said that she never watched her competitors' performances on the backstage monitor because she didn't want to get caught on camera going, "Fall, fall, fall!"

 

[seniorita]

Who hasn't say fall, fall, fall ??(Does it go like sing, sing, sing? )
As much as I wasn't happy watching Yag doing this at that moment, I m pretty sure Plushenko has done it as well in his career, he was just lucky he was not filmed.
Athletes are humans and fight for the same goal, what did we expect for them, Yagudin to see his big rival fail and think "Oh poor Plushy, why WHY you fell down, unfortunately now I win!"?

 

[janetfan]

Yes, it is something different. It's trash talk. It's not nice but it is part of sport. You see it a million times with hockey players, football players, etc. They put the newspaper articles that include some insulting or not so nice words by the opponent up on the board in the locker room for extra motivation.

Part of it is a form of gamesmanship (tactical manuevering).

In the case of Patrick's recent remarks he may have simply been responding to remarks Plushy made first.

When Plushy gives an interview and knocks several of his competitors it is only natural that some of them may respond. Plushy made a few comments about Patrick's skating and all Patrick did was respond back.

I am sure Plushy does not mind what Patrick or any other skater thinks about his skating. Win or lose, Patrick does not seem the type to back down from anyone.

Patrick is almost 10 years younger than Plushy and I don't expect a teenager to act as professionally as a man who is preparing for his third Olympics.

 

[seniorita]

In the case of Patrick's recent remarks he may have simply been responding to remarks Plushy made first.

Plushy made a few comments about Patrick's skating and all Patrick did was respond back.

What?Who?When?
Oh god, that is as much true as I am Paris Hilton.

 

[plushyta]

Yes, it is something different. It's trash talk. It's not nice but it is part of sport. You see it a million times with hockey players, football players, etc. They put the newspaper articles that include some insulting or not so nice words by the opponent up on the board in the locker room for extra motivation.

Quite a big difference between hockey & football VS figure skating :sheesh:

In the case of Patrick's recent remarks he may have simply been responding to remarks Plushy made first.

When Plushy gives an interview and knocks several of his competitors it is only natural that some of them may respond. Plushy made a few comments about Patrick's skating and all Patrick did was respond back.

Be kind, and quote Plushy's "offensive remarks" about Chan, that he must answered Plushy with offend

 

[i love to skate]

Quite a big difference between hockey & football VS figure skating :sheesh:

Why? They are all competitive sports full of athletes who want to win.

 

[plushyta]

Why? They are all competitive sports full of athletes who want to win.

If you do not see a difference, I do not know how do you explain ... this is, roughly, the difference as between the rock'roll and classic music

 

[janetfan]

If you do not see a difference, I do not know how do you explain ... this is, roughly, the difference as between the rock'roll and classic music

I read it on the Plushy thread - the interview where Plushy said what is wrong with Evan, Patrick and Lambiel.

You must remember because we already discussed it a while ago.
Even Paris Hilton has a better memory that some of Plushy's fans

Since then Plushy gives a new interview with new insults to skaters.

Don't worry - there will be more talk - I am sure Plushy will give another interview after Euros and put down Patrick and Evan again. Or anyone else he can think to speak badly about.

It's OK - I am sure Patrick won't be shy about answering back........