How can Kozuka compete with Chan On PCS?

[Boeing787]

Buttle should have continued. Lysacek ended up winning the World title and Olympic Gold without a quad. Those titles would have been Jeff's most likely.

Keep in mind that Jeff was born on Sep. 1, 1982, while Evan was born on June 4, 1985.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I was at Skate Canada in 2008 and saw his performance there. I was also at 4CC and saw his performance there. There was a world of difference in speed, flow and command of the ice. There was also a difference in the use of his upper body. He wasn't flailing his arms any more, and he was more centered over his blades. How could you possibly discern improvements in his speed from your TV screen?

As for the Evan of 2006, he had few transitions, little in the way of choreography, and mainly stroked between his elements. You're correct that by 2010 he had learned to use the system, and that meant upgrading his footwork and his spins, all of which were Level 3's in 2006. By 2010, Evan has raised the bar on his spins and footwork even though the ISU had steadily increased the requirements to achieve the top levels. Only his straight line step sequence was a Level 3, the rest of his spins and footwork in the LP were all level 4's.

Yes, Lysacek was better at 4CC than Skate Canada that season because he retooled his programs and because most skaters tend to build throughout the season. I'm not sure what your point is in relation to how he was skating in 2006, those things are irrelevant. Also, as for determining speed when not seeing a program live, it's really not that hard when you work in the medium and also when you have watched skating both live and recorded enough. I've seen Lysacek train and seen him compete in person plenty of times.

Now, Lysacek circa 2006 - I find your claims to be false. The only extra transition Lysacek's program circa 2010 had over his 2006 program was a brief, shallow spread eagle position before the opening 3Lutz combination. Everything else was the same - a turn going into the 3Sal, a quick edge after the 3Loop, a spiral before the 3Flip, a short transitions before the second 3Lutz. Everything Lysacek did after 2006 was in fact just a copy of that formula, with very minor variations. He did add a single back turn inbetween the crossovers going into his 3Axels in 2010, but that's hardly a real transition - that's a standard 3Axel setup.

His 2010 program did not display better choreography. Look at the full-body involvement of the intro to his 2006 program in comparison to that of his 2010 program and little moves throughout the 2006 program that require a farther reaching out. Furthermore, the 2006 choreography was a better interpretation of that music, with more suitable moves to express the sensitive sides of the music and greater emphasis on hitting exact notes and drawing out the meaning of those notes and paying attention to the phrasing.

You are wrong about Lysacek's spins only being Level 3 in 2006. He received multiple Level 4 calls and, remember, there were four spins in a program rather than three during that time. The rules were not easier for gaining Levels in 2006 than they were in 2010 either - in 2006 it was in fact more difficult to get a Level 4 on a change-of-foot combination spin than it was in 2010. Lysacek didn't do any spin positions or entrances or transitions between positions in 2010 that he couldn't have done in 2006. The footwork he did in 2010 was more time-consuming, as per the rules, but there really were not any series of turns or steps he did in 2010 that he couldn't have done in 2006. It was simply a requirement to include more turns and steps in footwork circa 2010. The Level 4 call Lysacek received on his Circular footwork in 2010 (in the LP) is also incorrect in my eyes - some of those turns were not executed fully and shouldn't have counted. If you look at the brackets Lysacek did in 2006, those were frankly more difficult than any single step or turn he did in 2010. The footwork in 2006 also included full-body leaps. If you want messy patterns across the ice with a bunch of turns and steps going in random directions that have little or no relation to each other then, yeah, his 2010 footwork was "upgraded". I'm pretty sure he could have trained those footwork sequences in 2006 and executed them, if that's what the rules of the time had asked for.

There was also an improvement in his PCS scores - low 7's in 2006, mid 8's in 2010, but I note that at the Skate Canada in 2008, Evan was still scoring in the low 7's in PCS. By 4CC, his PCS scores had risen to mid to upper 7's, and by Worlds, he had achieved upper 7's and low 8's. All of which supports my contention that Evan made significant improvements to his skating over the course of the 2008/2009 season. Those improvements continued throughout the 2009/2010 season although not as dramatically as that stretch between Skate Canada 2008 and Worlds 2009.

I don't really care how the judges scored him, that means very little in terms of objectively analyzing the performances. Judges give higher scores to skaters with more reputation and momentum, plain and simple. PCS also vary considerably from event to event.

BTW, it should be noted that at 2008 Skate Canada, Lysacek was went into the competition following a series of disappointments AND made a very big mistake in the SP of that competition. If Lysacek had made such a mistake at 4CC, I assure you his PCS would have been quite a bit lower.

Judges who "think for themselves" don't last long in the sport of figure skating because they would be suspended. Any judge whose marks deviate significantly from the pack, are subject to a disciplinary hearing and would lose their ISU judging status, be sent for retraining, or both. The ISU doesn't want independent thinkers, they want judges who follow the rules and the guidelines.

Of course if you'd bother to read those rules and guidelines, you would know this.

I know the rules and guidelines quite well. Stop trying to act as if you have a better understand of figure skating. You don't. Quite a few judges have complained about the corridor of judging which the ISU imposes. This false wall from the ISU creates even more of a group-think mentality and hinders objective judging. Be that as it may, judges are still perfectly free to score PCS as they wish. It takes many instances of "straying too far" in order to lose judging rights and if people had the backbone to defend their opinions, then they would probably see some of those "marks against their record" rescinded.

Also, since judges "aren't paid" laugh: )...what do they have to lose anyway? If one thinks about it logically, the benefit of being a judge is the power of your opinion having direct influence. Letting someone else dictate your opinion flies in the face of what you are actually supposed to be doing. If your judging creates competition results that you find more agreeable, then you have created a change for the better within the sport. If you only act as a sheep, then you will not change anything.

Very bold statments. And yes, big IF! It's almost like saying IF Chan didn't injured hisself before the Olympic and IF Chan got his quads working, he would have won the Olympic.

Not only that your statments are just exaggeration, you failed to see that even "easier" programs can make mistakes too. Any skater can fall on a simple 2A. The ice is slippery. There's no such thing as if he has gone for the "eaiser" program, he will dominate and beat everyone else.

Kozuka's 3Axel is/was more consistent than Chan's. He made things a lot more difficult for himself with those jumps even though CoP didn't directly reward him for the added difficulty and he attempted the Quad in addition to it for most of the year too. If you go back and watch his performances from the season, those jumping passes are pretty much the only mistakes he made. It's very likely that if he had skated Chan's jump layout he would have been very consistent all season long and delivered many "perfect" performances. That in turn would have boosted his scores up because he would have gained more momentum and reputation, thus higher scores from the judges. He won Skate America that season (deservedly, over Johnny Weir and Evan Lysacek...one of the best judging outcomes ever), he would have won TEB had he gone for a 2Axel instead of attempting a Quad which resulted in 0 points, and he would have won the GPF had he delivered a solid program without a Quad (he had a pretty big lead in the SP there and could have afforded one or two minor mistakes in the LP to win overall). He could have carried that momentum and competition strategy onto a Japanese title, a 4CC win, and an eventual World title.

Every win would have continued to build his reputation and turn him into the undeniable favorite by the time Worlds came around. Taking the 4CC title would have been of very large importance, because Lysacek coming 2nd in that competition with a Quad after Patrick Chan singled out on one of his 3Axels is part of what gave Lysacek more momentum going into Worlds. A lot of people were saying Lysacek was robbed and that he would be Joubert's true competition at Worlds. Patrick Chan has never skated a competitive program with 2 clean Triple Axels in his entire life. Kozuka, on the other hand, is quite capable of such a program. Delivering a clean program at 4CC and winning the title, giving him an undefeated season, would have made him the undeniable favorite going into Worlds and Lysacek would have been viewed as a Bronze-medal threat at best (although he still could have won Gold with the way he skated at hometown-Worlds, if Kozuka were to not skate perfectly as well).

I would have really enjoyed seeing how the Olympic season played out with Kozuka going in as World Champion. In my mind, he deserved the Silver medal at Olympics. I wonder how much more consistent how would have been that season if he gone in with the confidence of being World Champion and how his success would have influenced both his scores and Takahashi's scores. Given the performances at 2010 Olympics, but the skaters' reputations altered in the way I've described, I feel like the podium probably would have been 1. Plushenko, 2. Kozuka, 3. Lysacek. (I personally feel the podium should have been 1. Takahashi, 2. Kozuka, 3. Plushenko....and then Lysacek 4th and Weir 5th, although with Weir placing higher in the Long Program than Lysacek and being lower overall because of the SP)

 

[Boeing787]

"Patrick Chan has never skated a competitive program with 2 clean Triple Axels in his entire life"?
He did it in 2009 worlds and won the silver although he singled out the 2Lo in the 3A+2Lo combination. He also did it in 2009 Nationals.

"Taking the 4CC title would have been of very large importance, because Lysacek coming 2nd in that competition with a Quad after Patrick Chan singled out on one of his 3Axels is part of what gave Lysacek more momentum going into Worlds."

Patrick doubled the 3A.

 

[Blades of Passion]

"Patrick Chan has never skated a competitive program with 2 clean Triple Axels in his entire life"?
He did it in 2009 worlds and won the silver although he singled out the 2Lo in the 3A+2Lo combination. He also did it in 2009 Nationals.

No, he didn't do it cleanly at 2009 worlds. He didn't have full control on the landing of the second 3Axel, which caused him to do a very awkward 1Toe afterwards instead of a 2Toe and resulted in -GOE. Incidentally, I was sitting with Patrick Chan's mother and father at the time, and they immediately asked me how much it would hurt his score when it happened. I had to do quite a bit of talking that competition, explaining rules not only to them and but also skating alumni who were sitting with us and didn't really understand the scoring system.

You're correct about him doing both 3Axels at 2009 Nationals, that's the one time, although I guess I forgot about it because he completely bombed his 3-3 combination in the performance. So what I should say is he's never done the typical 8-Triple layout cleanly. Kozuka has shown far more aptitude at being able to accomplish that kind of jump layout, which is what was important during those seasons.

"Taking the 4CC title would have been of very large importance, because Lysacek coming 2nd in that competition with a Quad after Patrick Chan singled out on one of his 3Axels is part of what gave Lysacek more momentum going into Worlds."

Patrick doubled the 3A.

He singled it ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTtfg6w_Ksw

That performance from Chan, btw, is my favorite LP of his in terms of the "second mark" (PCS).

 

[Violet Bliss]

Wow, BOP, I know Kozuka is good, one of the best in fact, but he is where he is today. Not bad at all. That was a loooong post filled with wouldas, couldas, shouldas, and a complete reconstruction of skating history. I know it most certainly happened as you described in one of the countless universes, each born with each possible decision ever made and each possible outcome ever happened. But AFAIK, that series of events didn't take place in this universe.

Nonetheless, Kozuka is in a very nice place today on his own life's path.

 

[Mathman]

Quite a few judges have complained about the corridor of judging which the ISU imposes. This false wall from the ISU creates even more of a group-think mentality and hinders objective judging. Be that as it may, judges are still perfectly free to score PCS as they wish. It takes many instances of "straying too far" in order to lose judging rights and if people had the backbone to defend their opinions, then they would probably see some of those "marks against their record" rescinded.

Off topic, but this is something that I have wondered about. The rules do allow the judges to defend their opinions, even to the point of bringing in videos to support them. So you are saying that most judges just take their reprimand rather than stand up for themselves?

Every year a handful of judges receive some sort of official sanction for judging outside the corridor three times, or whatever.

 

[fscric]

All I can say is we're lucky BoP is not a judge, otherwise, the scores he would have given to Patrick would be according to BoP rules instead of CoP rules.

 

[amateur]

My offering in response to the original question is that he can perhaps try changing his name to Pakahiko Cozuka ;-) ;-)

 

[skatinginbc]

why does the desire to "defend" Chan so often end up in your diminishing the skating and accomplishments of other skaters just to show the Greatness of Patrick? Why can't other skaters be great, too, but in their own way? Are the digs at Kozuka, Joubert and Plushenko necessary? Does this have to be some kind of constant competition on and off the ice?

:thumbsup: You just spoke out the feelings I have had for a long while. /The constant digs are not only through direct statements but also through innuendos, insinuations, and overtones of minimization.

 

[Violet Bliss]

My offering in response to the original question is that he can perhaps try changing his name to Pakahiko Cozuka ;-) ;-)

Or Taka Daizuka, for the other PCS king.

 

[gmyers]

It's just an idisputable fact that Kozuka was kind of misguided doing a quad so long in a version on COP that punished them so severely and made them worthless and dumb to do. But being from a federation where jumps mattered and a culture that prized jumps I don't see him ever being "smart" and going quadless like Lysacek and Buttle and Chan.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

gmyers, given that Browning, Stoijko and even Sandhu were known for their quads, I find it rather disrespectful for you to presume things about Canadian and American culture.

Buttercup, this is what Chan fans get to deal with!

 

[skatinginbc]

gmyers, given that Browning, Stoijko and even Sandhu were known for their quads, I find it rather disrespectful for you to presume things about Canadian and American culture.

Buttercup, this is what Chan fans get to deal with!

I don't find it disrespectful. I think Canadian and American cultures foster diversity, and therefore Buttle, who didn't have a quad but was good at what he did, was still lauded in his home country despite the constant pressure for a quad. He did not have to be another Browning or Stoijiko to be considered as one of the best. Japanese value toward skating, based on my interpretation of gmyers' statement, is probably more unidimensional (in a relative sense): Without big jumps, you are no good. I don't know if his observation is necessarily true or not, but I honestly don't find it disrespectful.

Have you thought about the possibility that the statement "I find it rather disrespectful for you to presume things about Canadian and American culture" can be turned around and against yourself?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

No. Could you explain it to me (especially since gmyers has recently criticized Nobunari Oda for not having the quad, but did so without a reference to his culture)?

 

[skatinginbc]

No. Could you explain it to me (especially since gmyers has recently criticized Nobunari Oda for not having the quad, but did so without a reference to his culture)?

Probably gmyers and Oda come from the same culture so there is no need for such reference. We name a culture or mention the word "culture" usually when doing cultural comparison or emphasizing a cultural character like what he was doing in his today's post. And the fact that he criticized Oda for not having the quad illustrates what he said today: The Japanese skating culture values big jumps--Without them, you are no good. Again, I am not saying his observation is necessarily true. I'm just saying he is very consistent in his logic. He expressed his personal opinion in a logical way and I don't find him purposely intending to offend any culture.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I don't think gmyers if from Japan, though.

I don't think bringing up culture in the first place helps his point, at any rate.

 

[Blades of Passion]

That was a loooong post filled with wouldas, couldas, shouldas, and a complete reconstruction of skating history. I know it most certainly happened as you described in one of the countless universes, each born with each possible decision ever made and each possible outcome ever happened. But AFAIK, that series of events didn't take place in this universe.

LOL, I love your description here!

The point, though, is that Kozuka likely would have accomplished more in terms of competitive success under the judging of the time if he had followed an easier jump layout, in part because consistency = higher scores from judges. He had the ability to rise to the very top but, because of challenging himself more, he ended up having lesser competitive results. However, I appreciate him more as a skater for the choices he made and feel he has often deserved much better placements....yes, even when taking the exact scoring system into account. It's quite easy to make a convincing argument that he deserved 2nd at the Olympics, if you thoroughly examine the protocols and the programs. Of course, part of it will always come down to personal taste.

Off topic, but this is something that I have wondered about. The rules do allow the judges to defend their opinions, even to the point of bringing in videos to support them. So you are saying that most judges just take their reprimand rather than stand up for themselves?

More often than not, yes (in the cases I know of).

 

[gmyers]

Yeah I am not from Japan or anything but before the 2010 NHK Trophy I read how the president of the federation was saying how it was important that all the men were trying quads. That seemed to be long running thing. Since Ito and her 3A really. Every country has its own skating culture and the importance of things varies.

 

[Boeing787]

LOL, I love your description here!

The point, though, is that Kozuka likely would have accomplished more in terms of competitive success under the judging of the time if he had followed an easier jump layout, in part because consistency = higher scores from judges. He had the ability to rise to the very top but, because of challenging himself more, he ended up having lesser competitive results. However, I appreciate him more as a skater for the choices he made and feel he has often deserved much better placements....yes, even when taking the exact scoring system into account. It's quite easy to make a convincing argument that he deserved 2nd at the Olympics, if you thoroughly examine the protocols and the programs. Of course, part of it will always come down to personal taste.



More often than not, yes (in the cases I know of).

Kozuka should be very happy knowing have a fan like you!

I watched some of his programs on youtube, and found he doesn't connect to music as much as Patrick does. For instance, they both skated to Take Five, but Patrick hit the music much more. I also compared their SP's in 2010 worlds and came up with the same conclusion. Because of this weakness, he loses points in both IN and CH. He should hire Lori Nicole if he wants to get higher PCS! Lori knows how to choose the right music. I can tell the version of Patrick's Take Five is easier to skate to, and Lori designs movement for almost every note. There is a reason most of her clients are medalists!

 

[let`s talk]

The definition of "troll" entails a primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response.

^^^^ I think posting over and over at every opportunity over an extended period of time that Chan will win any event with 6 to 10 falls fits your definition of trolling.

Calling people names like you love doing definitely provokes readers into an emotional response and therefore by your own logics fits the definition of trolling. Join the club!