How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?

[TallyT]

If they aren't rewarding them with points, even if an element isn't illegal it isn't being encouraged. Beyond that I don't see what they can do.

I love Adam, but honestly his backflips aren't aesthetically pleasing and a little jarring. I don't think he gains any marks from them (and last season got 2 points deduction executing them), so at that point it's just his choice.

They should avoid making them an element with value or encouraging them, but if they want to do them they will do them (even if they don't in competition and just in practice/shows).

They're probably doing the stunts for a hopefully viral 30-second tiktok. Colour me unimpressed.

 

[Skating91]

I feel like with the sanctioning of somersaults and push to decrease the age of pairs to 16 (presumably to help a particular couple with a disturbingly large age gap representing a fed hungry to regain past glory), the ISU have lost all moral authority now in trying to protect the health of skaters especially children.

Let us not forget the quite concerted campaign in 2022 to protect children by raising the age limit. They pulled out all the stops, emotional pleas, polls, studies, etc. But suddenly want to reduce it again to increase the level of injuries and trauma to children? This is wild.

It is starting to feel like the raising of the age limit was not about protecting the health of child skaters, but for other purposes (which I probably shouldn't elaborate it could be construed as controversial).

If people want to do a somersault at their own risk in a show, good for them. But this is something that when it does go wrong can result in horrific head/neck injuries, whereas a triple axel going wrong you are likely to fall on your butt (still hurts of course and there is risk but nothing like falling on your face or head). The ISU is sanctioning and implicitly encouraging it now. I think this is so completely wrong. At least ban it in juniors if there's any sense of responsibility left.

 

[Mathman]

Would I ban a backflip? I'm not a fan of the move - it's too hackneyed.

Everything old is new again. Here is the first backflip done in an Olympic free skating program (Terry Kubicka, 1976 Olympics).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkzedeORUs0I

In the 1940s there was a performer named Adele Inge who entertained at ice shows at the New Yorker hotel who did backflips in her programs. (I don’t know whether Frick and Frick in the 1930s had that element in their repertoire or not.)

Still, I wouldn’t call it hackneyed just because it has a long history. The first Ina Bauer was done in the 1970s, but it is still a cool move today. In 1999 Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen brought back the Charlotte spiral from 95 years in the past. People still skate to music – a startling and controversial innovation introduced by Jackson Haines in the 1860s.

Bill Gates is mention above. Gates actually invented something, the DOS operating system, which brought computers to the masses. (Gates was the Jackson Haines of personal computing. Or at least the Charlotte Oelschlagel.)

But also, people who resurrect old skating tricks from the past, I have no a priori problem with it.

 

[Mathman]

OT – On the subject of “everything old is new again,” here is figure skater Richard McBride winning the 2024 World Masters competition (artistic division). Jason Brown would be the first to applaud!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCnYyUlLXow

 

[sisinka]

I copy another part from 2024 World Men Thread:

2024 Worlds: Men's thoughts and comments

. Maybe it was the time zone which made it impossible to watch the FS live, and watching after the fact all the emotions were kind of dulled. I'd assume that's it. Same for me. When I cannot watch live, it's not the same. That's why I get more into events in Asia and America and not so much...

www.goldenskate.com

... Should the ISU work on developing proper headgear that is appropriate for skating ( we have read that helmets we have now are not good for a bunch of reasons). ...

After traumatic injury of head, doctor probably sometimes recommends helmet and skater follows or not follows this.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/e...WUxyaO14KXBXqSEePo2BzCEUvzMGQm12&guccounter=2

- Skaters have worn helmets in the past after injury – Shae-Lynn Bourne suffered a head injury during a practice fall when she was a junior skater and pair skater Doug Ladret fractured his skull while skating. Bourne wore a helmet during practice. Ladret wore a helmet part way through a competition.

Still I cannot imagine that new developed helmet / headgear would be available in every country skaters come from, so worldwide use would be questionable.

... Should the ISU ban other moves? ...

Maybe this could go with examples of possibly very dangerous elements and discuss how much is it dangerous or not.

Having element “X“:
1) look at slow motion and discuss what kind of injury can happen and how much it can be dangerous
2) collect data – injuries from falls in those element

For example triple lutz:
1) fall can possibly lead to - haematoma, sprain ankle, ankle fracture, torn knee ligaments, head injury – concussion, shoulder dislocation, back pain....cutting your back foot with blade of your front skate (this kind of injury happened to more well-known skaters - I know about Kulik, Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert)
2) practise of 100 different skaters with 100 falls in triple lutz (being the first attempted triple lutz with fall on the practise, with lutz being the first practised jump, skaters having no pain and no diagnosed acute injury before the practise).
Results: 80 skaters had haematomas only, 8 skaters were completely OK (miracle), 5 skaters sprained ankle, 4 skaters with hitting head + haematomas on different parts of the body, 1 skater torns knee ligament, 1 skater with concussion.

The result for triple lutz – from these datas there is no bigger evidence that this element leads to life threatening condition. Most of studied falls led to mild injuries.

Example of 100 falls is not high enough, much more skaters collecting about 1000 would be much better. Also skaters should be divided into group of those who learn triple lutz as new element and group of those who already perform triple lutz at competitions. In my opinion percentage of injuries would be different in each group (higher in the first group).

As to back flip we can only take retrospective data. I expect that there is a small number of falls since the first back flip was practised on the ice. (I would count only skaters learning back flip, not acrobats on the ice as I believe that acrobats have different kind of trainings and body control in comparison with skaters.) Slow motion and discussion are possible.

 

[sisinka]

... It's a tricky proposition to try to limit the boundaries of sport. I'd bet that the injury rates involved with a 3A are higher than the injury rates associated with a 2A. So... do we ban them? And if so, why not go back to the single axel, which is safer still? That jump worked fine until Dick Button. ...

But another way to look at it is this: I'd bet that there are a thousand times more falls by beginners trying to do their first single Axel than on all the triple Axels in the history of the world. To me, a single Axel looks pretty scary because of that face-first take-off. Ouch! ...

Starting skating at childhood you start to train single jumps at early age. Mental skills, gross motor skills and fine motor skills are developing thanks to brain maturing. Since birth to 6-7 years brain is growing and developing rapidly. Later in teenage years till mid or late 20s there is still a brain development, but not that big.

Another thing is improving child‘s skills thanks to practise = repetition of movements again and again.

So natural mental and motor skill's development thanks to brain maturing is supported by right practise of both on and off the ice.

Skater attempting triple axel usually skates for few years at least, so his level of body coordination and ability of muscle activation (right muscles in right time, being activated fast) is on high level, she / he already mastered work with edges (which is something what child beginner hardly does).

On the contrary child has an advantage in much smaller height and weight, they are also more slow in comparison with teenage or adult skaters. So the falls are usually less painful.

Triple jump means faster rotation in the air - it create bigger forces in landing. Teenage / adult skater attempting triple jump has bigger weight which also increases forces effecting body in landing.

Teenage / adult skater's bodies are already more damaged after years of skating in comparison with child beginnners. So injuries are not the results of the falls from jumps only, but may also be the result of long-term overloading from practise and wrong technique.

 

[Mathman]

For a different perspective, I looked up how many people get injured each year from slipping/falling on ice. In the U.S., it is 1,000,000 annually that require medical attention, with 17,000 fatalities. Conclusion: ice is slippery.

 

[Anna K.]

Who is educated and qualified to teach back flip?

IMO it's not a good idea to learn back flip as an adult because your general flexibility and coordination may be insufficient to do it safely. However, if anyone for whatever reason would like to do so, I'd suggest to consult a (certified) stunt coordinator.

These people are the best educated and qualified regarding risk assessment and falling safely when trying something from outside the box.

 

[Mathman]

Why couldn't some talented designer come up with a light-weight helmet surmounted by a wig? That way a skater (pairs lady in particular) could have some protection while at the same time create the illusion of performing with all her bare-headed crowning glory on display.

Motorcycle gangs in the U.S. used to adopt this strategem when states first passed laws requiring motocyclists to wear helmets. (Then they would ride back and forth in front of the police station giving the bamboozled cops the finger.)

 

[Arigato]

5) Who is educated and qualified to teach back flip?

Coaches?

That's exactly who trained Adam. First with a helmet and then without.

 

[DancingCactus]

The most interesting thing about the back flip is people getting into a huff over the back flip.

Obviously we are fine with skaters doing them in exhibitions. Keegan did it regularly and everyone loved it. He could have had an accident during pracise or at an exhibition, but that would have been no problem, because the ISU wouldn't have officially "encouraged" it by allowing it in competitions?

I think if Adam is going to do it in every major competition from now on regardless of the deduction, it's going to get old soon, but as something of a YOLO moment I kind of like it.

 

[Arigato]

Nathan Chen pulls off FORBIDDEN BACK FLIP with Keegan Messing at Olympic gala | Winter Olympics 2022

At the Olympic Gala, gold medalist Nathan Chen and Canada's Keegan Messing both pulled off backflips to wow the crowd, even though they are forbidden to do d...

www.youtube.com

 

[PaulE]

Bill Gates is mention above. Gates actually invented something, the DOS operating system, which brought computers to the masses. (Gates was the Jackson Haines of personal computing. Or at least the Charlotte Oelschlagel.)

Bill Gates did not invent DOS. He licensed it from the Seattle Computer Products (SCP) company: https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/05/oldest_ancestor_of_msdos_recovered/.

Bill Gates and Paul Allen did develop Microsoft BASIC (Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_BASIC.

 

[gkelly]

Most rinks either ban pair skating entirely or have designated sessions devoted to pairs or that are consistently empty enough to allow one pair to practice. My rink also doesn't permit more than two skaters to skate to the music at the same time during a freestyle session, whether practicing a synchro program (even if there are more than two members of the team on that session) or practicing a duet for a show number.

Similarly, local rinks can ban backflips and similar acrobatic moves on their regular sessions.

For an elite skater who wants to add or maintain a unique move to their repertoire for show skating, they can rent private ice time. Or maybe specific empty daytime sessions would allow such moves. At a training center, there might be specific sessions that allow these kinds of moves. But the average intermediate skater shouldn't be attempting non-skating acrobatic moves on a crowded freestyle session even if they are also an above-intermediate gymnast.

As long as the ISU is giving no points for these moves and issuing deductions for backflips specifically, we can't say they are encouraging them.

If necessary, they could increase the deduction and/or go so far as to disqualify a skater who performs a forbidden move. If the latter, should there be two tiers of illegal elements -- those that earn deductions only, and those that kick the skater out of the competition then and there?

But the ISU has no jurisdiction over what show skaters do in shows not connected to ISU competitions.

 

[Mathman]

@gkelly. Thank you for being a steadying voice (as well as knowledgable one). The point of my many sermons, however ineffectually delivered, is that figure skating is more than Olympians and professional entertainers. For every one such elite athlete there are 10,000 others involved in the sport who do not have a voice or an advocate on figure skatinng forums. Google says there are 222,890 figure skaters in the United States and more than 2000 rinks offering ice time and instruction.

Likewise, figure skating is more than the latest wunderkind. It has a rich a decades-old history and traditions that should be honored and not scoffed at.

 

[TallyT]

For a different perspective, I looked up how many people get injured each year from slipping/falling on ice. In the U.S., it is 1,000,000 annually that require medical attention,...

Ehhhhh, in one of his books (in the 90s) Bill Bryson listed from official records the ways people in the US could injure themselves badly enough to end up in ER (and I am not having a go at Americans, I have no doubt it's the same elsewhere but he had the stats where he was at the time) and...

According to the latest Statistical Abstract of the United States, every year more than 400,000 Americans suffer injuries involving beds, mattresses, or pillows. Think about that for a minute. That is almost 2,000 bed, mattress, or pillow injuries a day. In the time it takes you to read this article, four of my fellow citizens will somehow manage to be wounded by their bedding.

There were also tens of thousands if not more injuries from desk accessories, sound-recording devices, 'grooming devices', chairs and beds (400,000 of them), coins and paper money and yes, their clothes. Okay, none - or few, and that's a worrying thought if any - of these involve fatalities. But skating at least is one of the things we expect to have a modicum of danger, like most active sports and a lot of things in life that are just as risky and way less fun to do or to watch.

Then or now, TPTB whether on an official level or the owners of the local rink (or local frozen-over lake) can only do so much, especially these days when people will do all sorts of stupid things for a hint of social media. Elite skaters are by their nature more willing to do insane things on ice, especially at a time the technical whizzbangery is clearly valued more than the skills and artistry.

 

[adhara]

1) Falls on the ice usually leads to injuries or at least to haematomas. You can fall on every part of your body, you can hit the board with any part of your body head including. You can fall on your back and then hit the ice with you head.

This is absolutely false. The first thing every skater learns is how to fall safely. Falls on jumps are some of the safest ones because they are predictable. Falls on backflips will also be predictable.

People learning backflips aren't stupid. There are methods to doing it. There are spotters. There are harnesses (just like there are for regular jumps). There is padding. Everyone I know who has learned a backflip was wearing a helmet until they felt confident enough to land it every time. Watch an ice show. It's more common than you think.

As someone who has done backflips off ice: when you mess it up you tend to land on your feet first before falling. This is no different than a figure skating jump. You land on your feet then you fall.

On ice acrobats? Skaters who perform back flips? Do they have coaching licence?

Yes. I know of two.
Edit: I know two, one in each city I've lived in. Though I know most major coaches at hotspots in the world, I don't know much about freestyle skaters and the coaches that coach backflips. I only know the ones at my rinks.

 

[Skating91]

Ehhhhh, in one of his books (in the 90s) Bill Bryson listed from official records the ways people in the US could injure themselves badly enough to end up in ER (and I am not having a go at Americans, I have no doubt it's the same elsewhere but he had the stats where he was at the time) and...

According to the latest Statistical Abstract of the United States, every year more than 400,000 Americans suffer injuries involving beds, mattresses, or pillows. Think about that for a minute. That is almost 2,000 bed, mattress, or pillow injuries a day. In the time it takes you to read this article, four of my fellow citizens will somehow manage to be wounded by their bedding.

There were also tens of thousands if not more injuries from desk accessories, sound-recording devices, 'grooming devices', chairs and beds (400,000 of them), coins and paper money and yes, their clothes. Okay, none - or few, and that's a worrying thought if any - of these involve fatalities. But skating at least is one of the things we expect to have a modicum of danger, like most active sports and a lot of things in life that are just as risky and way less fun to do or to watch.

Then or now, TPTB whether on an official level or the owners of the local rink (or local frozen-over lake) can only do so much, especially these days when people will do all sorts of stupid things for a hint of social media. Elite skaters are by their nature more willing to do insane things on ice, especially at a time the technical whizzbangery is clearly valued more than the skills and artistry.

There are maybe 300 million Americans who sleep on beds or mattresses each night. How many Americans attempt a backflip on ice each day? Maybe one or two? Doesn't really matter. If 300 million people in the world attempted a backflip on slippery surface a hard as concrete is each day what do you think the injury rate would be?

For a sport that has been in hysterics about the danger of particular jumps and how some have likened the teaching of it by professionals as some kind of abuse, to then turn around and have the ISU legalise somersaults implicitly encouraging them, and have many defend and justify the decision is really bizarre.

I'm not against people doing somersaults, and even Adam if he's willing to sacrifice a medal for the sake of showboating allow him, but hit him with a deduction to discourage from learning and attempting this stunt. If they want to do it in a show (I don't like it when they do somersaults over people laying on the ground you only have to get it wrong 1 in 1000 attempts for a horrific outcome) that's their choice. It's their body. They just better make sure their insurance is in order.

 

[Mathman]

Then or now, TPTB whether on an official level or the owners of the local rink (or local frozen-over lake) can only do so much...

Still, all that doesn't absolve us from the responsibility to do whatever we can to make sports as safe as possible.

It is the same with all issues that we face. I don't think that male pairs skaters and coaches are any more likely than anyone else to try to try to take advantage of young ladies in their orbit of influence. I don't think that figure skating authorities or coaches are any more likely to supply performance enhancing drugs to their protoges than is the case in other sports. This does not mean that we have to throw up our hands in despair.

On the other hand, there is no magic genie that will make all problems go away. We just have to keep working away at them.

 

[Anna K.]

Ehhhhh, in one of his books (in the 90s) Bill Bryson listed from official records the ways people in the US could injure themselves badly enough to end up in ER (and I am not having a go at Americans, I have no doubt it's the same elsewhere but he had the stats where he was at the time) and...

According to the latest Statistical Abstract of the United States, every year more than 400,000 Americans suffer injuries involving beds, mattresses, or pillows. Think about that for a minute. That is almost 2,000 bed, mattress, or pillow injuries a day. In the time it takes you to read this article, four of my fellow citizens will somehow manage to be wounded by their bedding.

Thank you for bringing up statistics. Given the harsh times that we are living through, we needed that bedly.