Does anybody know why Japan misses JGP? Tomorrow there will be FIFA beach soccer World Cup final in Moscow between Russia and Japan and it seems footballers haven't such problems with travelling as figure skaters. Although probably there is some kind of mandatory carantine after the return to Japan...
How Should Junior Grand Prix Finalists be Selected?
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
Hope ISU has some money for it.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2012
Japan will start sending singles skaters again in starting in week 4. They are taking the first four weeks off.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
Let's leave politics and national views out of this and simply consider each athletes equal...
Last year, athletes from a certain country were not able to get ice time. They were not able to travel. Their federation had to cancel their GP event because of tons of restrictions from the local government. The federation tried to organize online events... even this wasn't feasible.
During that time, the federation of that country asked the ISU to cancel the World championships as their athletes would be at a disadvantage. The ISU didn't give these athletes any special treatment. They had to go and try to not only be competitive but earn Olympic quota spots. Tons of pressure, very little opportunity to compete. In the meantime, is some other areas of the world, athletes were training and competing.
This year, some athletes are denied access to a couple JGP. The ISU arranges, not only for these athletes to compete at other JGP, not following usual quota rules, but also mentions that qualification for the final will be modified as it would be unfair to these athletes all bunched up in a couple events.
I believe the ISU is doing the right thing accommodating the athletes as they are right now. I place the athletes first. They deserve to compete. They deserve to earn their qualification in a fair way.
Where was the ISU last year when other athletes needed to get some adjustments to compete fairly?
So there. There is a special treatment given to some athletes this year that was not granted previously. In light of that, I wish that the qualification for the final does not penalize those who competed early in the season, nor those who will be competing in stacked events. I hope that the ISU will raise the number of participants for the final, especially considering that many of these young athletes didn't even compete last year. I have already explain the system I would like to see and why I believe that scores only do not constitute a fair way, nor do rankings at event.
I could also add that with the way the world works right now, Autumn Classic, which is usually very well attended by athletes from all over the world, is no longer meeting the requirements for an ISU challenger in men with the withdrawal of skaters that were helping to reach the 4th county + 8 skaters... Will the ISU let the skaters present and competing at Autumn Classic gain the same points as if they were in a normal challenger series??? I doubt it... So this is what I am saying... Covid is making life difficult for many athletes... complicating the organization of events all over the place... adjusting for some is not fair... if others do not benefit from similar treatment.
Being fair is not allowing things for some at the expense of others. It is making adjustments that will honour every athlete fairly.
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Well it seems likely now that the medals won by nonRussians at the two French events won't count for much anyway. The JGPF spots will probably be decided by total score, and of course, all the Russian skaters at the other events will be rewarded with scores so high that most if not all the skaters who 'make' the JGPF will be Russian.
Just wait til we see the tech and judging panels at the remaining JPG events.....
Just wait til we see the tech and judging panels at the remaining JPG events.....
There's quite a large difference between cancelling the World Championships, which in a non-Olympic year is going to be the big money-maker for the ISU (though given it was without an in-person audience I'm sure that affected the bottom line) and making minor adjustments to the Junior Grand Prix series (which probably at best breaks even or loses money) of putting 5 Russians at an event in Slovakia and Russia to accommodate for events outside of the control of the Russian skaters, Russian Fed or the Russian government.
And the ISU attempted greatly to accommodate for the pandemic last year - they turned all of the events domestic to be only for skaters that train in the countries of the GP series.
And none of those GP skaters last year received any World ranking points.
But several European challenger events DID get points. Of course, no NA skaters could travel to Europe to attend those events, due to the pandemic.
A fair solution would have been no ranking points awarded for the fall season.
But several European challenger events DID get points. Of course, no NA skaters could travel to Europe to attend those events, due to the pandemic.
A fair solution would have been no ranking points awarded for the fall season.
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- Dec 5, 2015
I enjoyed reading everyone's opinion on this subject. I think that the suggestions of combined selection criteria for the JGPF seem the most equitable.
Going purely by placements isn't fair for the Russian athletes or the Japanese athletes.
However, scores always increase as the season goes on and scoring between events can be radically different. I remember two years ago Ksenia Sinitsina received extremely high scores at JGP Italy ( as did all the winners, Grassl's scores at that event were so high that I remember laughing for several minutes after seeing them ). She never got close to replicating those scores the rest of the season despite performances of similar quality at other events. Those scores guaranteed her two spots at GPs this year. I use this example because Ksenia is one of my favorite women skaters but even I realized those scores were inflated.
Thus, just using scores is, also, not fair.
All that being said, what I actually believe is that doesn't matter how finalists are chosen because nothing is every truly fair, especially in skating. Competitors are used to inconsistency. And, in IMHO the JGPF isn't that important. The JGP isn't primarily about winning, it is about learning how to compete. All the competitors on the JGP are getting feedback about their technical and artistic performances, seeing their future competitors skate, experiencing the difficulties of international travel, and the learning to make the adjustments necessary. If they learn to excel in these circumstances, they have already won whether they make the JGPF or not.
Going purely by placements isn't fair for the Russian athletes or the Japanese athletes.
However, scores always increase as the season goes on and scoring between events can be radically different. I remember two years ago Ksenia Sinitsina received extremely high scores at JGP Italy ( as did all the winners, Grassl's scores at that event were so high that I remember laughing for several minutes after seeing them ). She never got close to replicating those scores the rest of the season despite performances of similar quality at other events. Those scores guaranteed her two spots at GPs this year. I use this example because Ksenia is one of my favorite women skaters but even I realized those scores were inflated.
Thus, just using scores is, also, not fair.
All that being said, what I actually believe is that doesn't matter how finalists are chosen because nothing is every truly fair, especially in skating. Competitors are used to inconsistency. And, in IMHO the JGPF isn't that important. The JGP isn't primarily about winning, it is about learning how to compete. All the competitors on the JGP are getting feedback about their technical and artistic performances, seeing their future competitors skate, experiencing the difficulties of international travel, and the learning to make the adjustments necessary. If they learn to excel in these circumstances, they have already won whether they make the JGPF or not.
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- Mar 3, 2014
Do we know who or what entity makes the decision for JGPF entries?
Is there one person? Is there a committee? If so, who is on the Committee?
If Mr. Lakernik gets to make the decision all by his lonesome, I can see "scores only" being used, but otherwise, I have no reason to believe that representatives of other feds would agree to it.
Is there one person? Is there a committee? If so, who is on the Committee?
If Mr. Lakernik gets to make the decision all by his lonesome, I can see "scores only" being used, but otherwise, I have no reason to believe that representatives of other feds would agree to it.
Cancelling the world championships (for the 2nd time in a row) just for one country is a lot. That's the most important competition of the season. That isn't even comparable to what ISU is doing now with JGP. The adjustements made still allow the other skaters to compete.
It was difficult for everyone last season. Each fed had to do the necessary to send well enough prepared skaters. Not every skater had a full season in legs, the usual ice time or were totally healthy but still skated and did their best. If a fed wasn't able to do the minimum that's its problem and all the other skaters around the world don't have to pay. Especially because missing two world championships is A LOT in a career now.
Russia couldn't attend the first two jgp not because of internal reasons like Canada, but because of international reasons that didn't affect only them but also other countries. We only talk about Russia and Japan but a lot of other skaters mainly from Asia withdrawed too.
So it's totally normal to be compensated for something that was out of their control.
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I don't know about that. Isabeau scored 202, that might be enough. I don't think Lindsay-at 180- will make the cut. Also, while the Russian juniors are talented, they are inconsistent this year-all trying difficult jumps with many misses on those triple axels and quads.
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- Mar 7, 2015
i am not saying the ISU should have canceled worlds. I am saying however that olympic qualification could have been updated. @Amei and @yume , please read the rest of my post. There are plenty of other adjustments that could be done but weren't done, and will not be done. I can add one more : Canada could no longer host the JGP in the summer, what about reallocating the host spots to other events? I would like to see 3 Canadian athletes per discipline in other JGPS... will this happen? I doubt it. There is nuance in my post. I never said Worlds should have been canceled but that it became unfair for athletes who didn't have events to prepare... nor even proper ice time... i simply said that there could have been amendments about Olympic qualification. Reading long posts is difficult, I will give you this.
I believe that what happened in Canada was out of the control of the athletes and the federation as well... I don't think it makes a big difference if an athlete is screwed by its local government or a foreign government... In the end, the athletes are paying a stiff price...
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Host spots are awarded for hosting an event. Canada didn't want to host it. That's it
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- Mar 7, 2015
A few corrections here.
Skate Canada certainly wanted to organize the event. Otherwise, Skate Canada would NOT have applied for it.
The government of Canada doesn't decide what goes on or doesn't go on... it is the responsibility of each province. The JGP was supposed to be in Alberta. So Skate Canada needed to work with the province of Alberta for that event to happen. Alberta said no. Not Canada... at the same time, Alberta is now hosting the World Women Hockey Championships and has hosted the Curling worlds earlier this spring. Alberta is not really a figure skating province though there is great talent coming from there, just not much depth. Actually, Kaiya (representing Alberta) did get to compete anyways, in France. However, if the event had been held in Canada two more young athletes would have had that opportunity, and probably not from Alberta. In other words, some athletes from another province were denied a spot from the Albertan government. Seems like very few people care... well, I do. I believe young athletes should get their fair opportunity to compete... My view on this topic is far more nuanced than certain people, and that's fine by me. YMMV
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Seems to me that only the final is in Japan. Final which will probably happen without Japanese juniors since it seems that their fed doesn't want to send them in any JGP. Still no entries for the 5th stage.
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- May 25, 2014
It sounds like you're saying that rather than have a "flawed" JGPF, you'd rather have none at all? If I'm misinterpreting your words, I apologize.
Honestly, I don't think there is a solution that isn't flawed or unfair to someone.
If you just use placements, skaters such as the Russian skaters, who weren't able to participate in the first two JGPs and won't have the chances they would have had otherwise, get shorted. They have fewer JGPs in which to place and more crowded fields. In the first two competitions, other skaters had placements they would not necessarily have gotten had the Russian skaters been allowed to compete -- and also had the Japanese federation sent its skaters.
On the other hand, skaters who got good placements at the first two JGPs earned them. It was through no fault of their own that some skaters couldn't compete. They seized the opportunity at hand and made the most of it, which is part of what is means to be a true competitor. So do we "delegitimize" their competition and not award them points toward the final, especially since it wasn't stated that would happen before they competed?
But if you cancel the JGPF, then no one has the opportunity to compete, even if they've earned their spot, either through placements, scores, a combination, or some other system (who knows what that is?). In my opinion, that seems like the worst choice of all, penalizing everyone. I think a flawed competition is better than taking the opportunity away from everyone, especially for the juniors who had almost no chances to compete all last season.
I'd like to see the ISU expand the field, as others have suggested, and use the placements from all the JGPs plus add more spots for the highest scores. I also hope that travel restrictions, etc. can be worked out for everyone for successive competitions so that there aren't more competitors who can't compete as the season progresses.
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- Nov 30, 2016
That's what they initially said, but it is not what's happening. The entries are out, with no Japanese skaters, for the first 5 events. Only two are left, and we don't know if any Japanese juniors will be entered.
They knew it could happen. On August 5 ISU published a communication. Here is a part of it
"Depending on the developments during the ISU Junior Grand Prix series, the ISU Council will evaluate if and how the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final (scheduled to be held on December 9-12, 2021 in Japan), could be held by applying alternative qualification criteria. Such decision will be taken as soon as possible in consultation with all stakeholders also taking into account the sanitary situation in Japan and around the world, which is particularly sensitive for junior-aged Skaters."
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