IJS point system and robots

[Sk8tr321]

We are starting to figure out this point system. My daughter is at the intermediate level and did her first 2 IJS competitions these past few months. All these girls, about 60, had programs that were almost exactly the same. They did the same spins and jumps and just about in the same order. We are starting to figure out why.

Before we started IJS, my daughter was doing this really cool spin, camel, doughnut, Biellmann, change, sit, I spin. Turns out she got a level 3. Everyone else did a death drop, pancake 8 times around, clam 2 revs and got level 4. So the name of the game seems to be doing whatever is easiest to get a level 4 spin.

We had a critique and they told us that even though her spins we awesome, she was working too hard and not doing the things that get the points. You have to do this before that and 8 times around without changing. So even though you went 21 times around on each foot you did not stay in one position for 8 revs. Even though you did 4 difficult variations you only get credit for 2...

I understand that the point system is supposed to eliminate subjectivity, however, the way it seems to be working is that we could just put robots out there and count points. Not sure what can be done about it.

Guess we need to get this program to fit the template that gets the points so she can look like all the others...

 

[gkelly]

Before we started IJS, my daughter was doing this really cool spin, camel, doughnut, Biellmann, change, sit, I spin. Turns out she got a level 3. Everyone else did a death drop, pancake 8 times around, clam 2 revs and got level 4. So the name of the game seems to be doing whatever is easiest to get a level 4 spin.

But those wouldn't meet the same spin requirement. The first would be a combination spin and the second would be a flying spin. (In intermediate the third spin is optional.) So it would be possible to do both those spins in the same program.

We had a critique and they told us that even though her spins we awesome, she was working too hard and not doing the things that get the points. You have to do this before that and 8 times around without changing. So even though you went 21 times around on each foot you did not stay in one position for 8 revs. Even though you did 4 difficult variations you only get credit for 2...

That's true. The rules are pretty specific about which combinations of features will earn the highest levels.

Once you understand the rules for earning levels, though, a skater with a lot of different spinning skills can plan all the spins to earn level 3 or level 4.

If you don't have lots of different spinning skills, then you have two options:

-Perfect the skills you do have. Rely on quality to trump difficulty. Plan a simpler spin spin and execute it really really well. A level 2 spin with +2 grade of execution will be worth the same or more than a level 4 spin of the same kind with no pluses. Also, making the spins look sharp can help the performance/execution component score, whereas complicated combination spins that look sloppy will likely hurt that score.

-Develop more skills. E.g., not just difficult variations of positions, but also holding positions for 8 revolutions, backward entry or difficult flying entry, spinning in both directions, changing edge, etc. If you want to get all your spins up to level 4, you'll a variety of different ways of earning levels.

At intermediate level, you're better off choosing only one of those approaches and sticking to it for a couple of years. It's hard to improve quality at the same time that you're adding difficulty.

I understand that the point system is supposed to eliminate subjectivity, however, the way it seems to be working is that we could just put robots out there and count points. Not sure what can be done about it.

Guess we need to get this program to fit the template that gets the points so she can look like all the others...

Originality is supposed to be rewarded in the choreography component. So if you're really doing something that no one else is doing, there are other places to reward it besides in the technical score.

But if you're just combining some of the same kinds of skills that others use but in ways that don't fit the technical panels checklists as well, the judges won't reward it because they're looking at element quality and overall program construction and execution, not keeping track of what levels the spins or steps are.

There's a limited amount of room for creativity and individuality in earning higher levels on those elements, as determined by the technical panel. There's a lot more room for them in the areas that are scored by the judges in the program components. But those areas are also more subjective.

 

[Mathman]

Not precisely on topic, but...

I greatly enjoy reading your posts, gkelly. You are a tremendous asset to this board.

 

[Sk8tr321]

You are correct I compared the wrong two spins. She will need to change her flying camel to a death drop to get the points of everyone else. It is hard to get a level 4 in a flying camel. My feeling is that she needs a coach that knows how to "work the system"

What we did was purchase to results from her whole group and the DVD as well. We went home and were quite amazed at what others were doing to get level 4 spins. She can do those spins no problem . Most were a lot easier than what she was doing.

We also noticed that just about every skater did the same spins and jumps and just about in the same order. While we want to get her score up it would be nice if she did not have to skate this same program but she needs to reduce the risk. She can change to more sit spins since it is so so much easier to go eight times around, change an edge, and vary positions than in a camel but you get the same levels.

It seems like you should only have to go 6 times around in a camel for the level. Due to physics it is hard to go 8 times around in a camel but she can easily go 20+ times around in a sit...

 

[vlaurend]

You are correct I compared the wrong two spins. She will need to change her flying camel to a death drop to get the points of everyone else. It is hard to get a level 4 in a flying camel. My feeling is that she needs a coach that knows how to "work the system"

What we did was purchase to results from her whole group and the DVD as well. We went home and were quite amazed at what others were doing to get level 4 spins. She can do those spins no problem . Most were a lot easier than what she was doing.

We also noticed that just about every skater did the same spins and jumps and just about in the same order. While we want to get her score up it would be nice if she did not have to skate this same program but she needs to reduce the risk. She can change to more sit spins since it is so so much easier to go eight times around, change an edge, and vary positions than in a camel but you get the same levels.

It seems like you should only have to go 6 times around in a camel for the level. Due to physics it is hard to go 8 times around in a camel but she can easily go 20+ times around in a sit...

If she can get into a donut position after just one or two revs on her flying camel, that should help speed up the spin and make it easier to hold for 8 revolutions. If she can do the flying camel from "stars" (also known as toe Arabian), then that counts as a difficult entry and brings it from a level 2 to level 3. All of this stuff is available in these documents (see pages 5 & 6 for level features), so you can read it yourself and discuss the various options with her coach:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/ISU%20Comm%201557.pdf

And don't forget, sometimes a level 3 of one type of spin is worth more than a level 4 of another type of spin, so you'll want to look at the scale of values as well: http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/200809-SP-SOV.pdf

 

[mskater93]

Actually, a well executed camel spin can go 8+ times around. More than 10, maybe not so much.

Vlaurend and gkelley are both correct - you have to read the rules and play within the parameters to get your points. If your coach is not conversant in IJS, either she/he needs to get there or will be dropped by higher level students; you need to do your own research if you adore this coach or you need to add a second coach who is able to play the point game.

There are also certain bullets that getting credit for is next to impossible such as clear increase of speed. Pick bullets to go after that are clearly defined and are attainable for your skater.

For a good reference for a L4 flying camel, go watch Rachel Flatt's programs.

 

[Sk8tr321]

Actually, a well executed camel spin can go 8+ times around. More than 10, maybe not so much.
...

For a good reference for a L4 flying camel, go watch Rachel Flatt's programs.

Thanks for all your help everyone.

She can go 8 sometime 9 or 10 times around in a camel but that is hard to do. It is so much easier to do in a sit which is why everyone at her level is doing it.

She really needs perfect is her layback. She can nearly do a pearl up to a Biellman like Caroline Zhang but not consistently (a bit risky). In the rule document there is something confusing. What is SP and what does this mean?

"Biellmann position after layback spin (SP – after 8 revolutions in layback spin)"

We think she needs to do Layback 4 revs, side 4 revs, haircut 3 revs (or pearl, she can almost hold it) up to Biellmann 3 revs. If she gets that smooth would that be level 4?

Thanks

 

[uss8]

Thanks for all your help everyone.

In the rule document there is something confusing. What is SP and what does this mean?

"Biellmann position after layback spin (SP – after 8 revolutions in layback spin)"

We think she needs to do Layback 4 revs, side 4 revs, haircut 3 revs (or pearl, she can almost hold it) up to Biellmann 3 revs. If she gets that smooth would that be level 4?

Thanks

SP stands for short program. When a layback is required, the skater must hold the layback( or sideways leaning) position for 8 revolutions before they go up into the Biellmann.

 

[gkelly]

SP stands for short program.

Yes.

When a layback is required, the skater must hold the layback( or sideways leaning) position for 8 revolutions before they go up into the Biellmann.

Actually, that's only true for junior and senior level.

If Sk8tr321 is interested in rules for the US intermediate short program, then the layback and/or sideways position only needs to be held for five revolutions before the skater can get credit for a Biellmann position.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/Technical_Notification_54.pdf

We think she needs to do Layback 4 revs, side 4 revs, haircut 3 revs (or pearl, she can almost hold it) up to Biellmann 3 revs. If she gets that smooth would that be level 4?

That's three features: change between back and side positions, difficult variation, Biellmann variation. Three features = level 3. If she can also clearly increase the speed with any of those position changes, that could be a fourth feature for level 4.

It's hard to keep track of all the details since they're not all neatly collected in one place.

The Technical Panel Handbook (this is an ISU document focused on junior and senior levels) is a good resource for what the technical panel takes into account. But then the ISU and USFS put out additional clarifications during the season.

 

[mskater93]

Ah, but clear increase of speed is near impossible to get called at that level. I would recommend 8 in layback, 3 in side, 3 in haircutter, and 3 in Bielman for a L4

 

[vlaurend]

Ah, but clear increase of speed is near impossible to get called at that level. I would recommend 8 in layback, 3 in side, 3 in haircutter, and 3 in Bielman for a L4

BTW, in order for the haircutter to count, she needs to make sure it is done in a layback position, not with the torso upright. Sounds like that would not be a problem for her.

 

[mskater93]

And that the foot is no more than a fist difference from the head

 

[SerpentineSteps]

OMG I KNOW!

I hear that they're going to replace 5 of the judges with robots for the Olympics as a cost-cutting measure!

 

[childfreegirl]

Just my two cents from a fan perspective, but cookie cutter programs get very boring after a while. I don't want to see six, eight, ten, fifty skaters or teams do the same moves in the same order. I'm not monitoring a test session for god's sake! Isn't this sport supposed to be about creativity and expression? I thought that was supposed to factor in to the score and the making of the program. But that's JMO.

 

[mskater93]

You have to follow the rules to get your features, though, and there are some that are MUCH easier to achieve than others (which is why you see them repeated in program after program). For example, the difference between a L3 and L4 change combination spin is 0.5 points at base value. When you are talking about a program that achieves on average 25-30 points TES and the gradiation is very minimal between skaters, that 1/2 a point can make a HUGE difference.

 

[Sk8tr321]

And that the foot is no more than a fist difference from the head

OK,

Maybe it is not a hair cutter (Still learning all these terms) Maybe it is is a catch foot after layback. It looks really cool but if she does not get any points and it is really hard to do we are not sure if she should do it. On the other hand it is so beautiful to see it would be a shame to take it out.

Here is a picture of the position in question:

http://fscoh.org/Photos/katiePearl.jpg

and she pulls it up to here:

http://fscoh.org/Photos/KatieBiellmann.JPG

She is trying for 8 revs in normal layback then side for 3 revs (to grab foot) then pulls up to Biellmann.

I really want her to work on this but the sit spin 8 revs, pancake, clam, change edge is soooooo much easier and looking at the DVD, gets a level 4.

 

[gkelly]

Isn't this sport supposed to be about creativity and expression? I thought that was supposed to factor in to the score and the making of the program.

That is a part of the sport, although basic technique is a larger part especially at the developmental levels.

Creativity and expression can be rewarded by the judges in the component marks.

Sometimes skaters get overly focused on earning the highest possible levels on their elements and building up the highest possible base mark. This judging system outlines fairly clearly how to earn those points. So once the skaters and coaches understand what the technical specialists are looking for, they can plan the programs to include just that and count on earning those base marks as long as they execute the elements and features well enough to count.

Doing harder jumps and harder spins isn't the only way to earn points, though. Depending on their individual strengths, some skaters might be better off choosing to do easier elements and aiming for higher GOEs from the judges.

Timing the elements to the music, for example, can be one bullet point toward higher GOE, along with the actual quality of the element. That might mean, for example, leaving out a position variation in a spin that would earn a higher level but adding arm movements during the spin that don't increase the level but do make the spin more meaningful in relation to the music and the program theme.

They can also choose to focus on creative choreography with a point of view and good expression of the music, and earn higher scores for transitions

The system gives skaters choices of where to place their emphasis. Aiming for the easiest way to earn the highest levels from the tech panel is not the only possible choice. Another approach would be to aim for higher GOEs and/or higher program component marks from the judges.

The best possible performance will have difficult elements with high-quality execution and also creativity and musicality. But not everyone can achieve all of that, especially while they're still developing their skills.

 

[Sk8tr321]

That is a part of the sport, although basic technique is a larger part especially at the developmental levels.

The best possible performance will have difficult elements with high-quality execution and also creativity and musicality. But not everyone can achieve all of that, especially while they're still developing their skills.

I am learning a lot here. The documents on IJS that you guys pointed to help a lot. The system is very complex though. It is hard to know for sure what will count. i.e. only two difficult variations count. You need to do 8 revs before Biellmann. It seems that we need to find a coach that is a technical specialist as well. Is there a way to know for sure if a coach has the qualifications to plan it out? Is there an IJS certification program?

Thanks!

 

[mskater93]

OK,

She is trying for 8 revs in normal layback then side for 3 revs (to grab foot) then pulls up to Biellmann.

A grab foot to bring it to your head is a haircutter, but the new directives to the tech panels is no more than a fist distance away from the head - further away = no credit for the variation.

I know I have spent tons of time pouring through these ISU docs as has vlaurend to try and attain the highest points possible for our programs at our level. I also know that if you live in the right areas (LA, Chicago, Boston, Detroit, Minneapolis, Colorado, etc), you can easily find bucketloads of coaches/choreographers that know their stuff when it comes to IJS. Tech Specialists are former skaters at the Novice+ Regional level (mostly current coaches and former competitors - like Todd Sands, Charlie Tickner, etc). Technical controllers are judges. They all take classes/tests for their respective appointments like regular judges and accountants.

My primary coach is a TS and knows her stuff and keeps up with each communication as released. I ask her questions regarding levels and we try many, many, many different things to come up with the one thing in the program that will attain the highest number of points for that element (for example, I CAN do a CCoSp4 but I am better off doing a consistent CCoSp3 because I am more likely to get a positive GOE on it versus a negative GOE on the CCoSp4 I can do. I don't stop working on the additional feature, but it's just not in the program). My secondary coach is along for the ride when it comes to IJS and is learning from my primary coach and me (and is incorporating it into his own programs).

Coaches who are unsure about what the program should contain or how to increase levels should schedule a critique with a TS and/or TC that they know. It's not a weakness to get an outside consultation from a tech panelist. I swear!

 

[vlaurend]

I know I have spent tons of time pouring through these ISU docs as has vlaurend
. . .
Coaches who are unsure about what the program should contain or how to increase levels should schedule a critique with a TS and/or TC that they know. It's not a weakness to get an outside consultation from a tech panelist. I swear!

Yep! Welcome to IJS Nerds of America, LOL! I have learned *SO* much by studying those ISU documents I posted and watching the Grand Prix and other events while looking at the scoresheets. It's easy to do, since the scoresheets are posted on www.ISU.org at the end of each competition and we've got IceNetwork and YouTube in addition to TV. You see the level each skater got for each element, then you replay it and count the features, noting which ones the skater went for but did not do clearly enough or long enough to get a level.

I also agree wholeheartedly that you should have your coach set up a critique with a technical specialist who is affiliated with your club so you can ask what levels your daughters spins, spirals and step sequences would get.

OK, Maybe it is not a hair cutter (Still learning all these terms) Maybe it is is a catch foot after layback. It looks really cool but if she does not get any points and it is really hard to do we are not sure if she should do it. On the other hand it is so beautiful to see it would be a shame to take it out.

Here is a picture of the position in question:

http://fscoh.org/Photos/katiePearl.jpg

and she pulls it up to here:

http://fscoh.org/Photos/KatieBiellmann.JPG

She is trying for 8 revs in normal layback then side for 3 revs (to grab foot) then pulls up to Biellmann.

I really want her to work on this but the sit spin 8 revs, pancake, clam, change edge is soooooo much easier and looking at the DVD, gets a level 4.

Wow, she's got a limber back! The position your daughter is doing is not really a haircutter; it is more difficult than a haircutter because she is leaned way back and holding her blade with both hands. I think it would be classified as a pearl, even though her free leg is less extended than Caroline Zhang's famous pearl position. As long as she can hold that position for 3 revolutions before pulling up to the Biellmann (technically, 2, but 3 is safer if you want them to count it as a separate position), she should be able to get another level for that. I have no doubt that her pearl would qualify as a difficult variation of a layback position based on the definition given by the ISU:
"A difficult variation is a movement of a body part, leg, arm, hand or head,
which requires more physical strength or flexibility and that has an effect on the balance of the main body core."

And once again, it's not all about the levels. You are comparing her layback spin to a level 4 sitspin (8 revs, pancake, etc) but a level 4 sitspin is not worth as many points as a level 4 layback! A LSp4 is worth 2.7 base points and a SSp4 is only worth 2.5. Your daughter can get a level 4 on her layback if she does 8 revs in layback, 3 revs side leaning, 3 revs pearl, then 3 revs Biellmann.