Is GOAT a meaningful concept?

[4everchan]

Respectfully (and again something that has been discussed before), I do not believe that this is an accurate assessment. Yuzuru Hanyu the individual has a huge and enthusiastic fan base that continues to suport him in his post-competitive career. This is not the same as saying that the sport of figure skating has undergone a sea change,

Yes, demographics plays a role and my perspective is what I observe in the United States. Maybe it is different in other countries. But what I see, when I attend local club recitals and exhibitions, are ten little girls taking learn to skate lessons for every one little boy.

have a look at Patinage Québec's entry list for Championnats québécois d'été.

2 Senior men (one from Ontario)
30 Senior women ( a few are out of province as well)
9 Junior men (only 5 from Québec)
34 Junior women
12 novice men (only 3 from Québec)
71, yes divided in 3 groups of 24,23,24 novice women
17 pre-novice men including those out of province
5 groups of roughly 24 skaters for pre-novice women... so over 120 pre-novice women.

Considering Hanyu performed a few times in Montreal (saw him do the first quad loop and his first Seimei) one could imagine he had an impact on inspiring the younger men generation of skaters. It's hard to make a case for that with such numbers. Nothing has changed in Québec's skating culture. However, more men are taking dance and pairs than singles in Québec. I wonder why would that be

ETA. Forgot to drop the entry list link

https://patinage.qc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/CQE2026-Liste-des-participants-au-6-juillet.pdf

 

[Arigato]

Misogyny is a BS excuse for not being able to make things happen in the real world.

 

[TallyT]

Wow, there is a fair old amount of sour grape wine being chugged here for something that some people - yet again, as I pointed out waaaaaaay back on page 1 - very very loudly insist is meaningless and they don't care about (and I notice that people don't actually don't seem to care - or fuss and fume - when it's say V/M or G/G being called GOATs, Kim or Kwan etc...) I will also point out that it was the "he isn't he isn't he isn't and it doesn't mean a thing and I don't care!!!!!" people who actually brought Yuzuru Hanyu into this thread so don't blame us because it happens so often...

So {deep breath}... warning, rant-reply ahoy, I haven't had my coffee and I am irked.

I think it was the GOAT thread in 2024 where I listed just the highlights in Yuzuru's list accomplishments (he has multiple wiki pages after all) and invited others to list Nathan's, or Patrick's or anyone else's to show they also have their claim to fame. I am not going to do it again as this thread is, according to the title and the OP's first post Not. Supposed. To. Be. About. Who. But. What. It. Means, however I have added to it since then and I can if people want to quibble.

And since said not-us people have dragged him into it, I will also add that every single man in the current top rank (say, the final flights of Olys and Worlds, or the GPF finalists, that do you?) has specifically cited him as their idol or how he has influenced them and how they watch him for inspiration. He has been credited directly with inspiring young Japanese, just one example being where a film director's research a couple of years ago showed the number of boys starting because of him, and maybe Shoma, was approaching equity - just as Yuna, my GOAT in the women, inspired girls in Korea (I'm sorry, @4everchan but jumping up and down because "a Japanese skater is not inspiring Canadian boys" is such a reach - leading with chin again? Wasn't that more Patrick's job if anyone's?). He has also inspired/collaborated with musicians, artists and photographers to create works (and still is). And he was shown to be responsible for so many fans travelling to and investing income at his competitions that not only did some municipal bodies credit him for their areas' bounty but the ISU's accountants actually mentioned him in discussing the drop in income after he retired. One or a few of these and all the stuff on my list does not a Greatest make (so let's not nitpick) but cumulatively? There is a reason ESPN and the AIPS chose him in their own greatest athletes lists, and he is near the top of surveys of Japanese people - all Japanese people - recognised worldwide.

If the term has meaning (and I have spoken about this already, yes it does in general if not for specific folk) then he is definitely one of the ones with the legacy and level of influence to be up there at the top of discussions, and anyone who says otherwise really needs to lay off the those grapes.

Now. {lets breath out}.

Could we get back to What. It. Actually. Means or if carp we must, make another thread and find another great skater to carp about?

 

[Mathman]

For me, I take the bottom-up view of all sports. Sports, at heart, are recreations for children (the exceptions being those with military origin like javelin and archery). The various "golden ages" of figure skating were when frozen ponds dotted the landscape and kids looked forward to being gifted a new pair of ice skates and rushing out onto the nearest frozen surface for fun.

Some children were interested enough and talented enough to extend their childhood into adolescence, and tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny few went on to aim for big bucks as professional entertainers, winning medals and exhibiting their skills before paying audiences.

For some reason -- I don't know why -- this view warms my heart. GOATS less so, but hey, I got no quarrel to pick with anyone -- just my take on the matter.

 

[PaulE]

For me, I take the bottom-up view of all sports. Sports, at heart, are recreations for children (the exceptions being those with military origin like javelin and archery). The various "golden ages" of figure skating were when frozen ponds dotted the landscape and kids looked forward to being gifted a new pair of ice skates and rushing out onto the nearest frozen surface for fun.

Thank you @Mathman for reminding me of one of the joys of my childhood. Every winter my small town in Idaho would have an outdoor rink and a warming hut. My parents took me there and gave me warm soup when we went home.

I never learned to really skate properly but I had a lot of fun and look back fondly on those winter days.

 

[Magill]

According to... you?

Okay.


According to... you?

I'm very happy for Hanyu that he can post shirtless pics as part of his modeling act, use his looks generally without much rabid criticism, pander to his audience using pooh bears, and have anime singers and songwriters give him certain opportunities as he builds his brand. He must feel a certain level of privilege to be able to do all that, while many women can't... wonder why that is. But good for him for growing his fanbase within a sport and outside of it in a world that's very misogynistic in general, by being a man. A wondrous achievement to anyone rational, I'm sure.


Sure here:



You're not going to start disagreeing with Google Trends and one of your own, now, I hope? It is, after all, how quite a lot of these "discussions" go.

1. It is not really a source, rather a "source", lol - a real source on "pull" would be hard data on ticket sales, TV viewership and the like. This is a nice commentary video, but this may not count as a primary source, a secondary one maybe... the only real data it gives is on the Google trends at the time of 2018 Olympics but even here it fails to show how they changed in time.
2. You are quoting a no name source - a fan video - claiming "men were just a side dish to women's skating in Sochi" and then going on to talk about Yuna/Mao rivalry. All very well, but it is not any hard data but just an opinion, like yours or mine. What's more, neither it says nor it means that their "side dish" status started just then or was caused by this rivalry. He's just contrasting the two at a given moment in time which he's talking about and says nothing of what it was like earlier as this is just where his story starts.
3. Still your source claims Yuzuru "officially orchestrated the men's event into the most anticipated event in figure skating as we know it today" referring to 2015-2016 season - his big record-breaking wins in NHK GP and then GPF in Barcelona with iconic programs. So even your source confirms my claim that this is what he did but sets the date earlier than you did - surely to achieve it he must have had a bigger "pull" by then than any woman at the time.
4. It repeats the same statement when describing 2018 Olympics and its impact (again, not 2016-17 season which you quoted) and yes it brings up Google Trends but focusing on the fact that interest in Yuzuru's win there was the highest interest rate ever recorded in GT history so far, and mentioning casually he surpassed the likes of Yuna Kim or Mao Asada and other former stars. Still it never says it was the first time he surpassed interest in X or Y, it says nothing about Google trends before or after, just focusing on it being "the highest interest of all time recorded in GT history". Surely, interest in him must have been already high earlier but your source just gives no data on it which we could relate to or compare to others as it is stressing another aspect - the highest of all time.

All in all, this fan video does not really substantiate your claim that "Hanyu could not get the same pull like Yuna/Mao even by 2016-17 season", such a conclusion is not justified by this video at all, not even made in it. So if it is your only source for it, it means no source at all, just your opinion, an "according to me" kind of claim which I have no intention to further discuss.

 

[Magill]

For me, I take the bottom-up view of all sports. Sports, at heart, are recreations for children (the exceptions being those with military origin like javelin and archery). The various "golden ages" of figure skating were when frozen ponds dotted the landscape and kids looked forward to being gifted a new pair of ice skates and rushing out onto the nearest frozen surface for fun.

Some children were interested enough and talented enough to extend their childhood into adolescence, and tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny few went on to aim for big bucks as professional entertainers, winning medals and exhibiting their skills before paying audiences.

For some reason -- I don't know why -- this view warms my heart. GOATS less so, but hey, I got no quarrel to pick with anyone -- just my take on the matter.

Very well. Why then not open a thread on making skating more accessible to kids in terms of finances and infrastructure instead of opening up just another one on those meaningless GOATs?
The amount ot time and effort people invest here in things they do not really care about is truly amazing...

 

[Arigato]

 

[yfan1]

Misogyny is an excellent "excuse" for much - including for how certain fans seem eager to dismiss the achievements of stalwart female skaters in their attempt to build up a man's reputation and popularity.

Beyond that, yes - it just is true that women put up with far more things in this sport as well as outside of it to not feel able to get the same opportunities as men. I remember quite clearly the competitions between Yuna and Mao fans about their mannerisms, their 'politeness', and the disgusting level of scrutiny Yuna as a national level figure needed to put up with about her figure and looks. If people wish to pretend a man will experience things like these equally, all I can do is laugh.

Yes, it's true that women are subject to abuse on a larger scale and at a higher level than men are in this sport. So excuse me if I find the repeated harping on about a male skater's reputation, popularity, how he "brought the sport back to men", how what Yuna and Mao did is 'hardly because of them' and how Hanyu, apparently, rocketed men's skating from the least popular discipline (completely false, seeing how many men were popular even before him - the least popular is likely to be Pairs) to the most popular one, and oh, how wonderful it is that someone who simply doesn't experience the sport's biases in the same way has continued to stick around the sport for an eternity after retirement while complaining about the sport's scoring over and over to be nothing more than hypocrisy coming from a place of discrimination.

 

[TallyT]

Misogyny is an excellent "excuse" for much - including for how certain fans seem eager to dismiss the achievements of stalwart female skaters in their attempt to build up a man's reputation and popularity.

Beyond that, yes - it just is true that women put up with far more things in this sport as well as outside of it to not feel able to get the same opportunities as men. I remember quite clearly the competitions between Yuna and Mao fans about their mannerisms, their 'politeness', and the disgusting level of scrutiny Yuna as a national level figure needed to put up with about her figure and looks. If people wish to pretend a man will experience things like these equally, all I can do is laugh.

Yes, it's true that women are subject to abuse on a larger level than men are in this sport. So excuse me if I find the repeated harping on about a male skater's reputation, popularity, how he "brought the sport back to men", how what Yuna and Mao did is 'hardly because of them' and how Hanyu, apparently, rocketed men's skating from the least popular discipline (completely false, seeing how many men were popular even before him - the least popular is likely to be Pairs) to the most popular one, and oh, how wonderful it is that someone who simply doesn't experience the sport's biases in the same way has continued to stick around the sport for an eternity after retirement while complaining about the sport's scoring over and over to be nothing more than hypocrisy coming from a place of discrimination.

Methinks someone's sour grapes are showing........ and it's a well known saw that when you resort to personal insults to try and win an argument, you've lost the argument.

It's a simple fact (and repeated over and over and over and over and over) that women's skating has historically been more popular than men or ID or pairs. Especially in the parts of the world most of us are in. Witness the different public reaction between Nathan Chen winning the Olys and the huge pr explosion surrounding Alysa. Witness the froth and all around Team Tut's girls. Witness Henie, Kwan, Kim.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Reminds me of how men were a side dish to women's skating during Yuna-Mao era, despite a superstar like Plushenko being around, and how Hanyu couldn't get the same pull even by 2016-17...

Plushenko didn’t compete much during the Yu Na/Mao post-2006 era. Nobody outside of skating knows who Lambiel or Takahashi or Buttle were. He drew a crowd in Sochi because of his comeback but it wasn’t popularity for the men’s field it was just for him, as a ton of people left once he WD’ed.

Similarly in the 2016-2017 season even though Hanyu’s popularity had grown, nobody cared/knew about Javier Fernandez outside of skating (or how remarkable it was that he had two World titles coming from a country like Spain). China didn’t really care about boosting Jin since they only care about pairs.

Folks in Canada don’t really care a whole lot about figure skaters (other than Stojko/Browning, Sale/Pelletier due to the SLC scandal), and Chan won 3 world titles and Canadians barely blinked.

So yeah, during the 2016-2017 season, there wasn’t a boost in popularity because it was Hanyu’s fanbase/interest vs everyone else’s lack of fanbase/interest. Meanwhile Russian women vs Japanese women was fuelling that discipline. So not exactly Hanyu’s fault that the women were more popular than the men.

Compare that to Kim who was an established superstar in Korea, especially after 2010. And Mao who was already a legend - and like Russia a couple years later, there was a massive Shizuka/Mao fuelled boom in Japanese women’s skating. And coupled with Hanyu/Takahashi Japan finally was emotionally and financially invested in (singles) figure skating. So the Kim-Asada rivalry spurred on massive rivalry and popularity. With no other main rival - from a country that cared about figure skating - Kolyada was the best from Russia (and even still he was no Yagudin/Plushenko superstar), and USA wasn’t competitive with only Jason Brown/Adam Rippon, and even with an Olympic silver and 3 world titles - Canada felt meh about Chan… men’s event popularity stagnated. When Nathan Chen came along/started achieving prominence, the interest came back because now Hanyu (who was already popular) had a rival from a country that actually cared remotely about skating.

Think about some of the GOATs people have listed and ask yourself if anyone outside of skating knows who Lambiel or Kostner is.

Plushenko is not on my GOAT shortlist just because I don’t really think of him as a great skater-skater (and I also don’t think he’s the greatest person either). But he is definitely accoladed and is definitely popular in his country, which are metrics that other people weigh more heavily on their GOAT assessments.

Hanyu is on my GOAT shortlist because he’s an excellent skater with memorable programs - not because he’s adored (mostly in Japan) or has YouTube hits or has whatever nationally-awarded medals or ESPN lists. The accolades and competitive level are also important metrics and Hanyu did have to compete/skate well for his major wins (save for Sochi which was a global men’s mess), unlike Plushenko who had a relative easy street of competition once Yagudin was out of the picture.

Similarly with Chan, I consider him on my GOAT shortlist because of his skating and programs, and technical ability. He was dominant in his 2010-2013 stretch but didn’t really face a ton of rivals (other than Takahashi and a 2013 Worlds Ten who should have beat him but lacked the clout at the time) until Hanyu came along. He also has top sporting honours including the Lou Marsh award and Order of Canada - but does someone in the U.S. or Japan care about those? Lol - heck even in Canada if it’s not hockey most shrug our shoulders. These national awards certainly do not factor into whether or not I personally consider him GOATworthy. But the lack of superstardom doesn’t compromise him being in the GOAT conversation for me - no more than Hanyu’s superstardom rationalizes him being in the GOAT conversation for me. For me, I care primarily about the skating itself.

A skater’s “popularity” is a crappy metric on my GOAT scorecard. Anna Kournikova generated a hell of a lot of popularity/interest in tennis - moreso than multi-Grand Slam winners like Henin - but she would never be considered a GOAT even if she boosted her sport’s popularity.