Is it time to get rid of the kiss and cry?

[midori green]

Maybe the Kiss & Cry is an incentive to teach young athletes to be gracious in victory and gracious in defeat. Accept that everyone has disappointing skates as well as amazing skates, and use everything as a learning experience for the next competition. (Do I sound like Ted Barton?) The problem with young skaters sobbing in the kiss & cry after a poor skate is not that they are on camera, but the conditions that made them feel so much pressure to be perfect that they can't handle the situation. This comes from coaches and parents fostering such a high-stakes environment. (I also don't love unsportsmanlike jumping and screaming with victories, either.) Accept your scores with dignity, and thank the audience for their support. That's what should happen in the kiss & cry area.

 

[Sjs5572]

We live in a "Dancing With The Stars," reality TV universe. I think the K&C is important for TV ratings; however it should be eliminated for Juniors and below. Drama = Ratings = $$$.

 

[TontoK]

Other sports have different ways to do it. The issue with figure skating is that they named it "kiss and cry". It does automatically involve drama and keep it in the culture of the sport. If you look at it as a bench to sit down and wind down while getting your scores, then it takes a whole new meaning.

But if you view it that way, it's hardly worth televising, is it? Just a guy or a girl sitting on a bench breathing?

No, it's the drama of analyzing their expressions - who's happy, who's crying, who's critical about their marks - sleuthing what the coach may be projecting, desperately eavesdropping to overhear a conversation. Yes, the term "Kiss and Cry" implies drama, just as it is meant to do.

Like the K&C or not, we should at least admit to ourselves that it's not just a seat where athletes catch their breath.

 

[CherylDee]

If anyone is so fragile they can't even sit for their scores, perhaps they should rethink being in the sport.

あっりがっと(arrigato), 谢谢 (Xièxiè), 감사합니다 (gamsahabnida). . . well said. They're kids in a competitive sport. They can handle it.

 

[TallyT]

While we're talking about this Kiss'n'Cry, can we talk those areas where the current top 3 are made to wait in full view until they are knocked out of the top 3? It's not so bad if the waiting skaters have done better than expected and fully expect to be surpassed, but can be excruciating for some skaters at some times.

The three guys in the green room don't look unhappy to me. Give the men some credit, they're not fragile flowers.

To be fair, none of them would have been at all surprised, or expecting to not be passed by most of not all of that stellar final flight (I wonder if I should mention Kolyada in the underrated skaters thread?) I have seen photos of other competitions where you could cut the atmosphere with a knife or the dagger eyes they are directing towards, I assume, a screen showing the current skater. I mean literally if looks could kill...

Yuzuru's reaction in that clip is pretty wonderful too, and I admit there are a lot of KnC moments I would be sad to think of never sharing, like his wildly gobsmacked reaction (timestamped) to smashing the 200 and 300 at NHK

and then his priceless "why am I crying" three weeks later at the GPF (with bonus Javi genuflection and Brian just "how is this my life?") Oh, and Javi's goat noises when he took Worlds 15, equally priceless... but also priceless is the way a skater from a small nation, or one of the mid or lower ranked ones, or a very new junior lights up the whole rink when they realise they have a new PB, or have made world minimums, or just... done themselves and their country proud.

There is however an undeniable blood and circuses element which can be rough on the young and/or sensitive (and remember, they are athletes but also, in some cases, deeply artistic and that brings sensitivity as well). The COC14 I mentioned above, just the main half dozen videos online have a combined viewcount of well over 10 million...

 

[Karoltyna]

Me, too. The whole idea that children should be trained to provide "entertainment" for adults, like performing monkeys, and then subject them to blistering criticism if they fail to entertain us to our satisfaction... yes, there is something unsettling about that.

Look how many views the streams get, how empty are the rinks, some of them don't even have the seats. Truly, in junior competition it isn't about spectators, it's all about the kids wanting to compete - not only in FS. BTW they don't show the skater in K&C all the time, mostly the show replays of the skate. I do like watching K&C at small national comps where all club seats there together and whatever happened during the skate they are just chatting and laughing. But you know, I don't look for drama in FS, when FS was all drama, I just stopped watching.
I would live perfectly well without K&C but as a parent I wonder if what we do now sheltering kids in every moment of their lifes is actually good because they can't be sheltered at some point of their lifes and I would not want my kid to be at this point unprepared. This is the whole point of junior competitions in every sport.

 

[Karoltyna]

Maybe the Kiss & Cry is an incentive to teach young athletes to be gracious in victory and gracious in defeat. Accept that everyone has disappointing skates as well as amazing skates, and use everything as a learning experience for the next competition. (Do I sound like Ted Barton?) The problem with young skaters sobbing in the kiss & cry after a poor skate is not that they are on camera, but the conditions that made them feel so much pressure to be perfect that they can't handle the situation. This comes from coaches and parents fostering such a high-stakes environment. (I also don't love unsportsmanlike jumping and screaming with victories, either.) Accept your scores with dignity, and thank the audience for their support. That's what should happen in the kiss & cry area.

Sport is all about being gracious in defeat and respect to the game and opponent. In sports like judo you can be disqualified if you don't pay proper respect to the opponent - no matter how mad or disappointed you are. In FS there is no direct opponent but there is a score. Sure, it is easier to take defeat in judo than in FS, but I agree, the problem isn't K&C and measly number people watching it live, but everything that happens around FS. This season only just started and there is already new skater vs. coach and fed skandal brewing.

 

[Karoltyna]

But if you view it that way, it's hardly worth televising, is it? Just a guy or a girl sitting on a bench breathing?

No, it's the drama of analyzing their expressions - who's happy, who's crying, who's critical about their marks - sleuthing what the coach may be projecting, desperately eavesdropping to overhear a conversation. Yes, the term "Kiss and Cry" implies drama, just as it is meant to do.

Like the K&C or not, we should at least admit to ourselves that it's not just a seat where athletes catch their breath.

But I see it as the seat where they rest and wait for the scores. What shall I do now? Should I stop watching this part of competition because someone thinks I do it for the drama?
Funny thing - I often skip K&C because I work far too much and during the K&C I just catch up with some stuff - because you know, they sit there, catch their breath and wait for the scores and it is less interesting than their skate. Is my humanity saved? Am I worthy human being?
I wrote earlier - I would live perfectly well without K&C but I don't agree with giving it a meaning it doesn't have - at least not for me.

 

[surimi]

PS - making it optional is probably not going to help because those who choose not to would probably get slammed online for piking it. Sports fans are appallingly fond of that charge.

OTOH, if KnC was optional, then footage of skaters having a meltdown wouldn't circulate online forever, get turned into memes etc. A few anonymous persons rambling online will be forgotten instantly, and I've never seen anyone bring up ancient fan posts. Videos are a different matter, and can resurface at any time.

I'd be okay with ditching the green room, or making it optional too - although it has given the FS fandom some precious and memorable moments with fun tricks and displays of camaraderie. If a skater watches their rivals' performances, I'm all for them having some privacy to react. If the rival messes up and the watching skater grins in glee because they just podiumed, let them; if the watching skater ends up off the podium, let them be frustrated without the world seeing their face.

 

[TontoK]

But I see it as the seat where they rest and wait for the scores. What shall I do now? Should I stop watching this part of competition because someone thinks I do it for the drama?
Funny thing - I often skip K&C because I work far too much and during the K&C I just catch up with some stuff - because you know, they sit there, catch their breath and wait for the scores and it is less interesting than their skate. Is my humanity saved? Am I worthy human being?
I wrote earlier - I would live perfectly well without K&C but I don't agree with giving it a meaning it doesn't have - at least not for me.

Well, first we can dial back the drama.

If you enjoy the K&C, then you should watch it. If you fast-forward like I do most of the time, that's fine, too. No big deal either way. Your humanity is saved. You are still worthy.

This is all a philosophical discussion. As I said in an earlier post, I don't care about it either way - although I do have reservations about junior skaters, especially those on the younger end of the scale. But really, that's not even a personal issue for me; I've already said that I don't watch junior skaters very often anyway. If there's a junior performance that's really noteworthy, a friend or two on this forum will alert me to it. And they know me well enough that they're not sending me Kiss and Cry footage.

 

[lariko]

I think now they're required to stay until the next skater is announced; you'll occasionally see someone stand up after their marks and be pulled back down or warned to sit back down by their partner or coach.

Because that indicates a show of respect to the next fellow competitor. It's like parents at a school concert who jump up and leave after their kid is done. Waiting for the score is showing respect to the work of the judges who have to work hard to give the performance a fair grade in every element, even the failed one. In the end, it's the skater and their team who benefit from fair analysis. Professional courtesy and good manners are valuable. Being okay with swearing in public on the highest levels of international diplomacy, throwing tantrums before international audiences and focusing only on oneself because we overvalue individualism to the point of egocentrism, even narcissism is not great. If courtesy and respect is not expected of an adolescent, then when? Adolescent are old enough to have values and the extreme Western concept that the adolescence is some sort of a horrid period one have to suffer through is mind-boggling. Trusova was 17, it wasn't a junior competition, and to her credit she was seeking privacy to have a moment to deal with and accept the loss. I assume that the reporters who hounded her were adults. That tennis diva the other day was 30+ and encouraging bullying and disrespect to the fellow competitor by the audience. While we all had seen teens and young adults acting with dignity and respect in that kiss and cry. Removing kiss and cry doesn't remove the root of the problem.

 

[Mathman]

Do I like bowing in front of an audience ?

I know, right? The performer is the star, why is he bowing in self-subjugation to the unwashed masses who ought to be bowing to him?

It goes back, of course, to the time when the "audience" was literally the king or feudal lord and his court and the performers were vagabonds who, also quite literally, had tp sing for their suppers -- and be whipped out of town if they failed to please.

 

[lariko]

I know, right? The performer is the star, why is he bowing in self-subjugation to the unwashed masses who ought to be bowing to him?

It goes back, of course, to the time when the "audience" was literally the king or feudal lord and his court and the performers were vagabonds who, also quite literally, had tp sing for their suppers -- and be whipped out of town if they failed to please.

They themselves said that they bow to all four corners to thank everyone whose love, work and dedication has put them in the middle of that arena and make their performance possible. Yes, even when the seats are empty.

 

[Mathman]

We live in a "Dancing With The Stars," reality TV universe. I think the K&C is important for TV ratings; however it should be eliminated for Juniors and below. Drama = Ratings = $$$.

This is the actual historical truth of the matter. The Kiss and Cry was invented and so-named in 1983 by a TV crew at an event in Finland who explicitly sought opportunities to get close-ups of emotional outbursts from the overwrought participants..

 

[4everchan]

I know, right? The performer is the star, why is he bowing in self-subjugation to the unwashed masses who ought to be bowing to him?

Actually, I always think of the real stars being the people who buy tickets to come to a concert As a performer, I value humility as the most important thing. Who am I versus the great composers I performer ? (nothing much LOL)

It goes back, of course, to the time when the "audience" was literally the king or feudal lord and his court and the performers were vagabonds who, also quite literally, had tp sing for their suppers -- and be whipped out of town if they failed to please.

See, I wasn't that far... Now the kings and queens are still paying the performers... so it's the same Except that the money is deposited directly into my account LOL

 

[Arigato]

The term "Kiss and Cry" was coined by Finnish figure skating official Jane Erkko around 1983 at the World Figure Skating Championships in Helsinki, when she identified the waiting area for skaters to receive scores as the "kiss and cry corner" to a television technician mapping the arena. A technician wrote "KISS AND CRY" on the map, the term was adopted, and it has since become the universally recognized name for the area. The name stuck, became widely used by the early 1990s, and is now an official part of the International Skating Union (ISU) Regulations

I don't think the Finnish skating official was trying to torment kids. Note to self: Always fact check Mathman

 

[RobinA]

Or at the very least make it completely optional?

What purpose does it serve a skater, especially after a disastrous performance where they are crying or on the verge of tears.

There is no justification for it, even more so in junior competition. To make someone sit there in front of a camera after a bad performance is a form of ritual humiliation. Obviously there are people out there who derive enjoyment from seeing someone upset and forced to sit in front of a camera otherwise the ISU wouldn't do it.

At the very least it needs to be optional.

Thoughts?

Sure, why not? Let's make skating even more uninteresting than it has become already. Kiss & Cry has already turned into skaters and coaches squinting at numbers that don't really mean anything to the viewer without an explanation.

 

[brushalley]

I love the KNC.Some great moments...P/C WINNING WORLDS WOW! Some sad moments too eg Drobiazco/Vanagas wearing those lovely crowns then removing them when they received their scores

 

[Mathman]

The term "Kiss and Cry" was coined by Finnish figure skating official Jane Erkko around 1983...

Yes, that is what Google AI Overview has to say about it, AI got it from Sonia Bianchetti's book Cracked Ice. (Bianchetti was the referee for the men's competition at the event). This information was posted here

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/t...solo-3as-in-the-sp.100994/page-2#post-3427123

the last time we discussed this topic, back in May.

There, see, I fact-checked myself.

 

[TallyT]

This is all a philosophical discussion.

Well that is true, I would be astonished if TPTB even considered dropping it any time in the foreseeable future.