Is the triple loop disappearing as the second combo jump?

[4everchan]

Point-wise, it seems like working.in a triple Axel ought to cure all other layout deficits. But then I was startled to realize that no lady has ever won an Olympic gold medal with a program that had a 3A -- not even Midori Ito.

well... Midori could have won in current rules. Don't forget figures. Don't forget judges playing favourites. Elizabeth Manley could have won too in Calgary for similar reasons.

Tonya Harding... well... let's not go there.

Mao Asada : she had a triple axel but struggled with 3-3 and the lutz. So having a triple axel is not going to help you if you don't have a steady and competitive short program layout. I think she did 3a-2t in 2010 in the SP ? My memory... i doubt I am right... but that, point wise is less than a 3lutz-3toe.

Who else ? In 2018, Mirai Nagasu was the triple axel lady wasn't she ? What happened to her : fell on it in the SP and popped it in the LP. So you live and you die by it.

2022 : I don't want to get into that one. That event for me will remain ruined forever.

2026 : Amber Glenn could win the Olympics with a triple axel Have faith.

 

[Jontor]

It's those darn +SEQ that ruins it for me now.

If we take Zagitova's program from '18 Olympics, it was totally maxed out without a 3A or quads. The +Loop combo made it possible for her to do 2 Lutzes and 2 Flips.

3Lz+3Lo
2A+3T
3F+2T+2Lo
3Lz
3S
3F
2A

With one less combination, and the option to do the bloody +SEQ, her program would probably be like:

3Lz+2A+2A
3F+3T
3Lz
3S
3F
3Lo
(but she would have backloaded the combos of course)

The +SEQuences has to go...

 

[Jontor]

well... Midori could have won in current rules. Don't forget figures. Don't forget judges playing favourites. Elizabeth Manley could have won too in Calgary for similar reasons.

Tonya Harding... well... let's not go there.

Mao Asada : she had a triple axel but struggled with 3-3 and the lutz. So having a triple axel is not going to help you if you don't have a steady and competitive short program layout. I think she did 3a-2t in 2010 in the SP ? My memory... i doubt I am right... but that, point wise is less than a 3lutz-3toe.

Who else ? In 2018, Mirai Nagasu was the triple axel lady wasn't she ? What happened to her : fell on it in the SP and popped it in the LP. So you live and you die by it.

2022 : I don't want to get into that one. That event for me will remain ruined forever.

2026 : Amber Glenn could win the Olympics with a triple axel Have faith.

In another dimension, Tuktamysheva could have been an Olympic champion with a 3A, but in this world she never had it when it mattered.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Rules do indeed have undesirable, or at least unintended, side effects. I suppose that's why the ISU changes them every two years: "no, no. no, that's not what we were going for at all!"

For this particular problem, though, I think that just counting a double Axel in with the triples for Zayak purposes would do the trick. This would discourage the +2A+2A sequences, while still allowing a more adventurous 2A+3T or 2A+3Lo.

The entire purpose of the sequence rule was to reward the difficult +3Axel combo, not give +2Axel so much credit. But the ISU always just picks parts of things to implement, without understanding the whole of what is trying to be accomplished and how it needs to be coded for the system to make sense.

I already worked this all out over a decade ago: jump combos need to be given bonuses based on their difficulty. It's not hard to have a formula based on the difficulty of the first, second, and third jumps in a combo. The computer can automatically calculate it and then every combo possible will be getting rewarded as accurately as can be expected for a system that is trying to assign a number to everything. My system perfectly predicted the value of the +3Axel many years before Hanyu made it a thing, while valuing the +2Axel as it should be: slightly more than a +2Toe but less than a +2Loop.

Trying to tie the 2Axel into the zayak grouping would hurt competitors who try to do more Triple-Triples. 2Axel has to be allowed in multiples, along with the normal allotment of zayak-limit Triples, so that people have something worthwhile to do with their extra jump passes after they've already done all the Triples within 4 or 5 jump passes.

 

[Mathman]

I already worked this all out over a decade ago:...

It remember it well.

At the time I thought that the ISU's position was that a triple-triple already received a "bonus" in the sense that it allowed a skater to work in an extra triple jump, compared to a program comprised all solo jumps. It has never been completely clear to me what the goals and intentions are of various rule changes and base-value tweakings are.