ISU announces the death of John Coughlin

[twirlingblades]

I like Dave a lot and enjoy their show. That's what I was worried that doing a show this soon on this topic would lead to that.

Yeah. Even before the video people were literally calling Christine Brennen and Dave murderers. Like.... I can see how that would mess someone up.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think it’s pretty clear we’re speaking of a dysfunctional culture that exists, albeit not uniformly, in the discipline, not claiming that it’s normal either within or outside of skating. .

I’m actually saying it isn’t normal culture and the way it was being presented came across as accepted and common knowledge. As in “that’s how it is”. My experience with real people who skated pairs is not in line with the statement I was quoting.

 

[twirlingblades]

To be frank....I don’t see why we are discussing Dave here. It’s so far removed from anything related to the issue. The reason people don’t often like TSL or Dave isn’t personal. For me it’s the way that they use situations like this to perpetuate their own interest and then as their fans start spreading their content he often becomes a martyr and it distracts from the actual topic at hand.

Comments can simply be turned off so I think it’s a bit more than people lobbing comments at Dave that caused the video to be removed.

I think how people are reacting to the media reporting this in general (whether it be TSL, Christine brennen, USA Today, CNN, etc) is very interesting.

 

[eaglehelang]

Yes, the guest on Dave Lease's show was a former cheerleader, and stereotypically so. She was blonde, and had a air-headed, high-pitched voice. However, if you look past her physical attributes, she did shed light on the pairs skating culture, which may have contributed to, or covered up, John's alleged actions.

- Girls in pairs are told they are worth 1/100 of a boy. They should do what the boy says, because if she is too difficult, there are 12 other girls waiting behind her to take her spot. Boys are golden. They are king. They have their pick of partners.
Perhaps unrelated, perhaps a bit related. John Coughlin unceremoniously dumped his partner Caitlin and replaced her immediately with Caydee. Caitlin never found a similar partner and had to quit pairs.
- Girls don't go into pairs from the start. They enter the discipline, usually because they not good enough at singles. From the get go, the girls have lower self esteem.
Caveat is dancing. Dance is not a second tier sport. You have to train from a young age to do well, at least now.
- Girls in pairs are often partnered with older sisters. 16 year old girls with 25 year man is common. These girls are sheltered, and this man may be the first young male who has paid attention to them.

The guest gave an example of a 23 yr old male pairs skater dating his 17 yr old female partner. And that they would the different laws state to state, as in age of consent.

She said sometimes parents were in denial, like pairs partners dating. Everyone at the rink knew abt the romantic relationship but the parents just went - Oh, its just innocent.

There are pairs partner who got married like Grinkov & Gordeeva, Shen & Zhao, Pang & Tong, Chris & Alexa Knierim.
So it wouldnt be surprising for them to be dating & later break up

 

[brightphoton]

Many men absolutely cherish their partner and show them the utmost respect.

That may be true, but if you look at US pairs senior level skaters, there is a lot of partner switching. A few years ago, there was a thread on Golden Skate called "why is US pairs terrible, but dance is good?" and I believe the consensus was that in dance, they are encouraged to stick together, even in bad times, while in pairs, people are encouraged to simply get a new partner. If you look at the senior medal tables at Nationals, you see a lot of partner switching. Maybe the girls in pairs feel more replaceable and willing to placate their partner?

As for John Coughlin, I think we can all agree that there was not much cherishing of the partner that he won his first Nationals with ...

 

[NymphyNymphy]

I listened to it. The guest, who was interviewed by SafeSport, had a flippant attitude throughout and Dave Lease seemed very unnerved by the events of the last 48 hours. Best that the video was taken down.

I noticed this too. The girl being interviewed was outright laughing towards the end and joking around. Even if these accusations are true, he committed suicide. He was in such a dark place that he felt that there was no choice but to end his life. Why are they laughing? This is no laughing matter both for John's family nor for the victims.

 

[Metis]

I noticed this too. The girl being interviewed was outright laughing towards the end and joking around. Even if these accusations are true, he committed suicide. He was in such a dark place that he felt that there was no choice but to end his life. Why are they laughing?

I think you’re misrepresenting her actions. She wasn’t exactly giggling. At the very end, she and Dave mentioned that skating has a real PR problem and she was laughing darkly about how poorly USFSA does PR. In no way she was laughing at Coughlin’s death.

Again, I thought much of her laughter and seeming flippancy was a product of nervousness, but regardless, at no point did anyone make light of events.

 

[cruzceleste]

I noticed this too. The girl being interviewed was outright laughing towards the end and joking around. Even if these accusations are true, he committed suicide. He was in such a dark place that he felt that there was no choice but to end his life. Why are they laughing? This is no laughing matter both for John's family nor for the victims.

Nervous laugh?

I do think is not healthy to pair very young girls with way older men and have them act romantically on ice, but I guess is so difficult to find a partner... I wish parents would take an overprotecting attitude with their children, if the recent R. Kelly program shows us anything is that parents shouldn´t trust blindly on people that promises success, fame and glory to your child. (Same with Michael Jackson...)

And yet Morozov is still very celebrated coach...

 

[cruzceleste]

Well, while I don´t fault media in reporting, people should think twice what they write in their social media:

'Words can be just as powerful as a bullet. To John, they were just that — bullets straight to his heart.'

Dalilah Sappenfield told DailyMail.com:

'I'm an sadden with grief that a young man who was the kindest, caring, and extremely admired person hit such a low point because of the loss of all he knows.
John was a very caring and selfless person. Always putting others ahead of himself. The love and support he is receiving from around the world is a testament to his positive affect of people. He was an amazing ambassador for our sport.

'I’ve known John for over 20 years (as his coach and second family) and he didn’t have a mean bone in his body. He was a beautiful soul who saw the good in everyone. He made you smile with his infectious laugh. John was a man of great integrity and just such a class act.

'Everyone knows John was one of the good guys. Being shunned for allegations not proven was something I know was hard for him to live with, but the mere rumor of assault is what sent him over the edge.

'My hope is that through John's tragic death, we can build awareness to bring change to the process of investigation so that both parties have their Constitution Rights to due process.'

Dave from TSL declined to comment and was contacted by the Daily Mail, could it be he fears liability for something?

From the same article Kandis Kovalsky writes:
'

Reading the vicious attacks lobbed against him on The Skating Lesson [comments] was beyond upsetting. People who never met John and knew none of the FACTS behind this investigation were saying some of the most vile and hateful things. TSL did nothing to monitor this content.'

 

[Metis]

It was followed by an onslaught of speculation by trolls on social media
Not really objective reporting there. It’s clear this article is coming from parties with an axe to grind. And acting as though it went unnoticed except for TSL... there was a thread on the suspension here before TSL discussed it!

 

[eaglehelang]

I can tell you from firsthand experience that this is not normal! Many men absolutely cherish their partner and show them the utmost respect. I know several that have married and or have formed lifelong freindships.

I’m not saying anything is off the table and it is true that people (of both sexes) may enter the discipline who don’t have a great respect for their partner or have been put into a disfunctional situation but your words are not in line with my experiences firsthand. I wanted to take the time to point that out.

Boys are the same. A good friend of mine made it to US Nats and subsequently tried pairs but never really got into it or was very good. I don’t think the partners he tried it with had low self esteem...in fact...they seemed very into the idea and one even one went on to have a reasonably successful pairs career and just started coaching. I think your projecting a bit here versus what reality is in general.


This is a very real issue. I think parents need to be extra vigilante in this time period. Far too often we see kids just left unsupervised wrecklessly at the ice rink by adults who should be vigilante. I know they can drive themselves to the rink around 16 but parents can’t just check out!! Considering some pairs skaters have to drive several hours to work with a coach there are certain situations that need to be given attention. I do think the coach should report to the patent but that is a bit awkward so I think the parents absolutely need to be the first line of defense. Fortunately I myself have never encountered anything awkward like a 25 and 16 year old partner but I don’t even think I can think of a reason why it should be allowed. The USFSA should probably have simple rules in place that discourage anything like this.

On the 1st & 3rd point, that was what the guest on TSL said. She said something like Girls are told from like age 5 to listen to the boy because there are 12 waiting in line to replace her.

The guest personally knew of 23 yr old with 17 yr old pair partners. And know they were dating. Also that parents at times are in denial/pretend its not happening when everybody and anybody at the rink knew. The dating that is.
Zhao Hong Bo is 5 yrs older than Shen Xue, Shen was underaged when they 1st were paired. When they started dating we dunno.

I thnk the guest's point was on how the situation can get awkward & how an allegation can arise with an adult <->minor romantic relationship.

Para no 2, I'm not sure if the guest mentioned this point. She did say something abt lower self esteem.

 

[TallyT]

I don't really like or follow TSL, but it's a clear and sadly all too common case of "kill the messenger"... a lot of people, some skaters included, do not want it to be true, so they look for someone to blame.

Happens everywhere, all the time.

 

[Metis]

It’s pretty ironic that Coughlin’s allies would use baseless allegations and outright fabrications to accuse TSL of precipitating Coughlin’s death, given how they’ve so strongly condemned Internet gossip and rumours, speaking without knowledge of all the facts, and then announced a firm belief in “innocent until proven guilty.”

Oh wait. That only applies to Coughlin. Everyone is responsible for his actions but him.

 

[cruzceleste]

It’s pretty ironic that Coughlin’s allies would use baseless allegations and outright fabrications to accuse TSL of precipitating Coughlin’s death, given how they’ve so strongly condemned Internet gossip and rumours, speaking without knowledge of all the facts, and then announced a firm belief in “innocent until proven guilty.”

Oh wait. That only applies to Coughlin. Everyone is responsible for his actions but him.

Alleged actions...

Not the same situation.

If you run a website, you should moderate, that´s a fact.

And before you say something I do believe that if Coughlin or anyone should be proved guilty should be punished.

On other news, looks likely that the investigation will be closed .

And it seems like safe sport is providing support for the alleged victims:

“We are making sure that any reporting parties are getting the support they need at this time,” he said. “I have worked with people who have gone through something like this and it’s incredibly heavy and difficult. I’ve worked with people who accuse someone and then the accused takes their life. And it happens the other way: the accuser taking their life. It’s all incredibly sad.”

 

[rachno2]

On other news, looks likely that the investigation will be closed .

And this is the saddest part.

No closure for the accusers or for his family. No lengthy dialogue about how figure skating as a sport and the USFS as a federation creates an environment where these behaviors are normalized.

I'm not surprised. But I'm disappointed.

 

[zschultz1986]

Not the same situation.

If you run a website, you should moderate, that´s a fact.

And before you say something I do believe that if Coughlin or anyone should be proved guilty should be punished.

On other news, looks likely that the investigation will be closed .

On one hand, I get it, you can't really get both sides of the story when one side is no longer here to give his side.

OTOH, this will give people zero closure, and I'm sure people will go about blaming whoever they want for Coughlin committing suicide. I understand, though, that closure for the general public is not the goal of a SafeSport investigation, nor would it get rid of every nut who want to blame people in the media for bringing this to people's attention.

 

[andromache]

Because Dave is already controversial (and that’s fair! He’s snarky and critical and people don’t like it), it’s way easier to use him as a scapegoat rather than examine and change the culture of silence around the sport.

To my knowledge, prior to John’s death, Dave and TSL never made any accusations against John. They did not encourage rumors or gossip. They reported it and discussed the culture of the sport more broadly. Maybe people said nasty things about John in comment sections, but Dave isn’t responsible for that.

 

[cruzceleste]

Because Dave is already controversial (and that’s fair! He’s snarky and critical and people don’t like it), it’s way easier to use him as a scapegoat rather than examine and change the culture of silence around the sport.

To my knowledge, prior to John’s death, Dave and TSL never made any accusations against John. They did not encourage rumors or gossip. They reported it and discussed the culture of the sport more broadly. Maybe people said nasty things about John in comment sections, but Dave isn’t responsible for that.

Actually, if I correct, there was a post to a tweet of them answering to a Brennan article when people were speculating if it could be another kind of fault (bullying... like we did in here) and they say that because of founding SS only deals with sex abuse allegations.

Here is the link to the tweet

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I don't really like or follow TSL, but it's a clear and sadly all too common case of "kill the messenger"... a lot of people, some skaters included, do not want it to be true, so they look for someone to blame.

Happens everywhere, all the time.

I do agree with you 100% but i would note that if a reasonable enough case can be brought forward that there was an intent to create defamation for profit and his family sees fit to pursue it then I would say they could potentially create a lawsuit. Even if they lose we all know how costly that can be for both sides so it seems like again...no one wins.

I would never speculate though until I had the facts on John’s Safe Sport case before suggesting such action would be prudent or petulant. Impossible to say but I don’t expect we will see a lawsuit filed. It just seems unlikely at this point based on what little we know. However...those close to John seem to be blaming social media for the suicide while staying clear of disputing the allegations. If they truly believe that and whether any of us agree with them or not may be completely irrelevant to whether or not they bring a lawsuit on his behalf. They certainly could sue to make a point in the public forum not about his safe sport case but rather to turn the attention to online bullying not only being tolerated but encouraged to a point of liability. We don’t even know the seriousness of the accusations yet.

This whole thing stinks!

 

[rachno2]

Actually, if I correct, there was a post to a tweet of them answering to a Brennan article when people were speculating if it could be another kind of fault (bullying... like we did in here) and they say that because of founding SS only deals with sex abuse allegations.

Here is the link to the tweet

But they weren't wrong? He was being investigated for sexual misconduct.