ISU Championship 'small' medals (Worlds, Jr. Worlds, 4CC, Europeans)

[Sylvia]

I thought I would start a new thread for this question:

Does anyone know why Worlds has a small medal (SP) award but not one for the LP?

I remember back in the days of compulsory figures how Toller Cranston was occassionally referred to as "the three time free skating champion of the world."

Similar comments were often made about Janet as well. But I don't think there were ever any medals given at worlds for the winner of the free skate.

'Small' medals are currently awarded for the free skate portion of all ISU Championships as well as for the short program portion.

2011 Worlds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_World_Figure_Skating_Championships#Medals_table

2011 Junior Worlds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_World_Junior_Figure_Skating_Championships#Medals_table

2011 Europeans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_European_Figure_Skating_Championships#Medals_table

(2010 & 2011 Four Continents doesn't have a similar 'small' medals table listed in Wikipedia.)

 

[brightphoton]

Yeah, more medals would be good for figure skating. Skiing has probably twenty dozen medals for skiing down a hill a whole bunch of different ways. Swimming has a million medals too, for basically swimming different lengths and for different styles of swimming. :disapp: :disapp: Don't even get me started on track and field.

 

[Buttercup]

Just to illustrate with something other than Wikipedia tables, here are a few small medal ceremonies from recent years, all for the LP/FD:

Men, 2011 Euros
Men, 2010 Worlds
Pairs, 2010 Worlds
Men, 2011 4CC
Dance, 2010 Worlds
Ladies, 2011 Worlds

As is the case with the SP small medals, these don't necessarily correspond to the actual podiums, (e.g. Brezina and P/B at 2010 Worlds, the order of finish at 2011 Euros). The ceremonies are fairly informal and are followed by a Q&A (at 2010 Worlds, Brezina was asked about his girlfriend, Chan about his favorite food, and Joubert - there as the overall bronze medalist rather than to receive a small medal - about what he'd done the night before ).

 

[Mafke]

I'm pretty sure (without having any proof) that small medals began as a trial balloon for having three separate competitions, figures, free and combined. Unfortunately, that never happened, probably because the olympics didn't think of figure skating as a high enough revenue event to justify the extra medals, but I do think figure skating would have been better off with more rather than fewer medalists at worlds and olympics.

lets look at a few olympics and probable ladies gold medalists (and other likely medalists, with no medals from the olympics in question but likely podium finishers in one section)

1972
figures - schuba
free - lynn
others - holmes
combined - lynn or magnussen

1976
figures - de navarre
free - hamill
combined - hamill
others - poetzsch

1980
figures - poetzsch
free - fratianne or biellmann
combined - fratianne or poetzsch
others, allen

1984
figures - sumners
free - witt
combined - witt
others - chin? vodorezeva? zayak?

1988
figures - ivanova
free - manley?
combined - witt or thomas
others - ito?

I think it all would have been a lot more exciting, but it wasn't to be.... : (

 

[jcoates]

1972
figures - schuba
free - lynn
others - holmes
combined - lynn or magnussen

1976
figures - de navarre
free - hamill
combined - hamill
others - poetzsch

1980
figures - poetzsch
free - fratianne or biellmann
combined - fratianne or poetzsch
others, allen

1984
figures - sumners
free - witt
combined - witt
others - chin? vodorezeva? zayak?

1988
figures - ivanova
free - manley?
combined - witt or thomas
others - ito?

I think it all would have been a lot more exciting, but it wasn't to be.... : (

Nice to see this idea revived. Why skating never did this in the Olympics when it is so successful in gymnastics has always puzzled me. If there was a public ceremony complete with anthems for the crowd to see when these are awarded in World competition, these medals might get more attention.

A couple of points regarding the projected individual and combined medalists from past Olympics:

Schuba should be listed as the combined event OGM. Her championship was controversial among casual viewers specifically because she won in spite of ranking 7th in the FS. Her figures were so strong that she absolutely could not be caught despite her pedestrian free skating. The ensuing criticism and confusion led the ISU to institute the SP for singles events (something which had been experimented with in pairs for a few years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_program_(figure_skating)).

Biellmann would have won golds for the SP and FS. Fratianne, who tied with Biellman in the SP would also have won a gold in that segment.

Also using this concept for medals would have awarded a gold to Liz Manley for the FS in 88.

Of course most famously, Kwan would have won two gold medals for her SP wins under this format. The same goes for Kerrigan in 94 and Cohen in 06. (interestingly there was an 18 year rut for SP winners in ladies Olympic competition between Yamaguchi and Kim).

Let's look at the other disciplines in the same context:

Strangely in pairs this format would have absolutely no impact on OGMs in any year from 76 to present. It will be interesting to see if this ever changes in the future.

In 84 Brian Orser would have won two golds for winning the SP and FS while Hamilton would have won golds for compulsories and winning overall. Also David Santee would have two bronzes the CD and SP in 80.

Judy Blumberg and Michael Seibert would have won their coveted Olympic medal with bronzes in the CD and OD under this system. While Regoczy and Sallay would have won gold for their FD in 1980.

Jan Hoffman would have won gold for the CD in 1980.

 

[Mafke]

I wouldn't be in favor of separate medals for the SP and LP unless they were reworked some to make them more distinct from each other. What I think skating should have done (starting in 1973 or so).

Figures (3, maybe 4 figures) and medals awarded at the end of the figures competition.

Combined: Two of the figures (probably a paragraph and a loop figure) and the SP combined, medals awarded after the SP

Free skating: The SP (weighted differently for free skating than for the and LP combined, medals awarded after the LP.

Alternately, figures and the sp could have been separate competitions with medals awarded at their completion with some carry over to the combined title with the LP as the deciding phase for that.

Any individual skater could enter just one or more phases.

This would have rewarded both the specialists who were better in figures or free skating and rewarded those with a better balance between the two as well.

 

[leafygreens]

So this means that Mirai is a free skating World champion.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Here's another question: has there been any event, post-figures, where there have been six small medalists? Moscow 2011 would've had five for men: Chan, Oda, Takahashi for the short; Chan, Kozuka and Gachinski for the long. 2007 Tokyo for the ladies (Kim, Ando, Kostner; Asada, Ando, Miessner) and Dance (CD: D/L, DenStav, DomShab; OD: DenStav, B/A, D/L; FD: DenStav, D/L, DelShoes)

 

[Olympia]

I like this idea because it spreads the wealth around. I'm sure it could be argued in the other direction, but multi-medaling is done in the sport that's probably most like skating, gymnastics, and it doesn't cheapen the all-around medal at all. Such a system would take some of the sting out of results such as 1984, when Orser came in first in almost everything but qualified only for the silver. Or, of course, Michelle.

For the more delicate skating fans like me, it would be a lot less stressful. If I knew there were more medals going out, maybe I could bear to watch some of the more hotly contested long programs instead of pacing around in the other room. These skaters work so hard, and to do it all for one medal seems a bit ruthless and makes me feel as if I'm watching the gladiatorial games. And gee, why should big, strong Michael Phelps win something every time he dips his toe in the water, when wispy little YuNa Kim, with the hopes of all Korea on her shoulders, has to work like a draft horse for an entire week to qualify for one medal? Even the cross-country skiers get more than that pittance.

Think of it this way: we'd get to know a lot more of the world's national anthems with this multi-medal system.

 

[leafygreens]

I like this idea because it spreads the wealth around. I'm sure it could be argued in the other direction, but multi-medaling is done in the sport that's probably most like skating, gymnastics, and it doesn't cheapen the all-around medal at all. Such a system would take some of the sting out of results such as 1984, when Orser came in first in almost everything but qualified only for the silver. Or, of course, Michelle.

For the more delicate skating fans like me, it would be a lot less stressful. If I knew there were more medals going out, maybe I could bear to watch some of the more hotly contested long programs instead of pacing around in the other room. These skaters work so hard, and to do it all for one medal seems a bit ruthless and makes me feel as if I'm watching the gladiatorial games. And gee, why should big, strong Michael Phelps win something every time he dips his toe in the water, when wispy little YuNa Kim, with the hopes of all Korea on her shoulders, has to work like a draft horse for an entire week to qualify for one medal? Even the cross-country skiers get more than that pittance.

Think of it this way: we'd get to know a lot more of the world's national anthems with this multi-medal system.

I agree because more medals means more excitement, for athletes and fans alike. Of course there are purists who balk at the idea because "that's the way it's always been done." There have been changes in figure skating throughout history, from the addition of ice dancing to the new scoring system, none of which have cheapened the sport. Other sports like swimming and gymnastics are not cheapened by multiple events. It is frustrating that one-trick pony athletes in other sports (like Emilie Lepennec on uneven bars) can call themselves Olympic gold medalists, yet someone like Michelle has a 10 year spectacular career and no gold medal, because skaters have to skate two events on two days for one medal and that's it, possibly for their whole lives. I appreciate the idea behind the new team event, but I think it is very poorly executed and not a good option for an "extra" skating event. Other events could have been better implemented. But as long as there is a medal event, there will be fans willing to pay for a ticket. Think of the prestige if a skater could say they are a 4-time gold medallist, or what have you, and make history like Michael Phelps. In our sport, it's basically impossible to make history like that because there are so few opportunities. If it is skating, I will watch it no matter what it is. It's really a no brainer. There should definitely be more medal events. It's really sad that Sonja Henie has won the most gold medals and she skated almost a century ago. There needs to be progress.

 

[gkelly]

It's really sad that Sonja Henie has won the most gold medals and she skated almost a century ago. There needs to be progress.

Well, Irina Rodnina has the same number. More than 30 years ago.

 

[leafygreens]

I stand corrected (even though they're singles and pairs - different events), but there should be more chances than twice a century, and it should be within the same Olympics. It's not as gratifying to have to wait four years and follow an athlete through multiple Olympics, hoping they get their chance (four years later, it is gratifying, but at the time it's frustrating that one event is all there is). And for us big fans, it would just be really exciting.

 

[PolymerBob]

So this means that Mirai is a free skating World champion.

Actually the short program skating world champion.

 

[Buttercup]

I'm all for giving medals for each segment as well as overall, but would like to see more differentiation between the SP and the LP if that's to be the case.

Here's another question: has there been any event, post-figures, where there have been six small medalists? Moscow 2011 would've had five for men: Chan, Oda, Takahashi for the short; Chan, Kozuka and Gachinski for the long. 2007 Tokyo for the ladies (Kim, Ando, Kostner; Asada, Ando, Miessner) and Dance (CD: D/L, DenStav, DomShab; OD: DenStav, B/A, D/L; FD: DenStav, D/L, DelShoes)

I can only think of some more with five small medalists, which apparently isn't too unusual. For example, there's 2008 Worlds, men: SP - Buttle, Weir, Takahashi and LP - Buttle, Joubert, van der Perren; as well as 2010 Worlds, ladies: Nagasu, Asada, Lepisto in the SP and Kim, Asada and Ando in the LP. In other ISU championships, you have 2011 Euros men, with Amodio, Brezina and Gachinski in the SP and Joubert, Verner and Amodio in the LP; and ladies: Korpi, Makarova and Meier in the SP and Kostner, Meier and Leonova in the LP.

Dance small medals were not given for CDs but for the combined CD/OD score, AFAIK.

p.s. why "would've had" for Moscow 2011? They really are the small medal winners, I'm sure there's video on Youtube of the ceremonies.

 

[Olympia]

Not only that, in my best of all possible worlds, the medals would be retroactive. Can you imagine the ceremony awarding the retroactive medals? They could market a DVD of it and probably make a mint off it from all of us "wuzrobbed" fans.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Just a grammer quirk, Buttercup!

 

[leafygreens]

If there were more Olympic events, what would they be? Let's speculate... There could be an "all-around" winner from SP/LP combined, then there could be an SP event, and an LP event. Ideally they should all be skated separately - not awarding SP medals for the all-around SP, but skating a separate SP. The feds could then choose to put their best overall skater in the all-around event, and different skaters for the separate SP & LP; or the same skater for all three (perfect for people who are known as "better SP skaters" or "better LP skaters"). Hopefully what this would encourage is a safe but steady all-around program, and slightly modified programs with more difficulty for the separate SP/LP (like gymnasts do for their event finals). Also, the separate SP/LP could have more clearly defined requirements. For example, the separate SP could be a jumping and spinning contest, and separate LP could be as it is judged now - jumps/spins with choreo/footwork, but more difficulty than the all-around LP. Maybe the separate SP wouldn't even have to be done to music. You just do your hardest maneuvers for 60 seconds. These are some realistic ideas that could easily be implemented, a lot more so than the team event, and they would be more interesting too. These events would offer more chances for individuals and smaller countries, whereas the team event is going to be the same winners all the time (the big countries with well developed singles, pairs and dance programs).

 

[smia]

Does anyone know in which year the ISU began awarding small medals?
I've always thought it was disappointing that skaters have fewer opportunities to win medals than other athletes, such as gymnasts, so it's good to hear about the small medals. But I don't understand why they're not really promoted. The media only reported that Mirai was first in the short program at 2010 Worlds, the fact that she got a medal for her efforts is mostly unknown unfortunately. The ISU should make more of an effort to educate the media that these medals are being awarded.

I hope someone edits Wikipedia with information on small medals in previous years.

 

[leafygreens]

Does anyone know in which year the ISU began awarding small medals?
I've always thought it was disappointing that skaters have fewer opportunities to win medals than other athletes, such as gymnasts, so it's good to hear about the small medals. But I don't understand why they're not really promoted. The media only reported that Mirai was first in the short program at 2010 Worlds, the fact that she got a medal for her efforts is mostly unknown unfortunately. The ISU should make more of an effort to educate the media that these medals are being awarded.

I hope someone edits Wikipedia with information on small medals in previous years.

I agree heartily. Perhaps they don't want to start acting like the SP and LP are separate events, which could prevent some kind of Olympic qualification? I don't know.

 

[Buttercup]

Does anyone know in which year the ISU began awarding small medals?
I've always thought it was disappointing that skaters have fewer opportunities to win medals than other athletes, such as gymnasts, so it's good to hear about the small medals. But I don't understand why they're not really promoted. The media only reported that Mirai was first in the short program at 2010 Worlds, the fact that she got a medal for her efforts is mostly unknown unfortunately. The ISU should make more of an effort to educate the media that these medals are being awarded.

I hope someone edits Wikipedia with information on small medals in previous years.

As far as I can tell, the small medals are sort of semi-official; the media knows about them, of course, and they're often attached to press conferences - but they're generally not reported about much. This means that you probably shouldn't edit and add them to Wikipedia, because there's no source for most of them (e.g. ISU press releases, media articles). But you can find some references here and there - for instance, in this GS summary from 2009 Euros.

Jeffrey Buttle's Wikipedia page includes a picture taken at a small medal ceremony (2008 Worlds LP).