ISU Congress: Age limit to gradually increase to 17

[mrrice]

Her ‘longevity’ is facilitated by extremely early entry into seniors. And, the 6.0 system where they gave medals to whoever they liked the best/seniority.

I'm not sure what you mean by this comment. When Michelle, Irina, and Maria Butyrskaya, won their world titles (Russia's first ever by a woman) won their titles, they ALL won them under the 6.0 system. As for " longevity," Irina Slutskaya skated for over a decade. Beginning with a Silver in 1994, followed by her Title at Junior Worlds in 1995. She continued through her Olympic Bronze in 2006. For me, that's what her makes special. It's not easy to get back up after you've been disappointed like Irina was 2002. We all saw her crying after she finished behind Sarah. For me, it's the increased technical difficulty that is taking a toll on these young skaters. However, I do think things will improve now that the age limit has been raised..

 

[lariko]

Her ‘longevity’ is facilitated by extremely early entry into seniors. And, the 6.0 system where they gave medals to whoever they liked the best/seniority.

I'm not sure what you mean by this comment. When Michelle, Irina, and Maria Butyrskaya, won their titles, they ALL won them under the 6.0 system. As for " longevity," Irina Slutskaya skated for over a decade. Beginning with a Silver in 1994, followed by her Title at Junior Worlds in 1995. She continued through her Olympic Bronze in 2006. For me, that's what her makes special. It's not easy to get back up after you've been disappointed like Irina was 2002. We all saw her crying after she finished behind Sarah. For me, it's the increased technical difficulty that is taking a toll on these young skaters. However, I do think things will improve now that the age limit has been raised..

You do understand that this age limit would have shaved off 4 years from Kwan’s senior career, right?

That Trusova is already half-way there, and Tuktamysheva, in years, have more longevity than Kwan?

You are fixating on Zagitova, but when Zagitova was in seniors, Trusova was already overshadowing her in juniors. And Scherbakova was gaining slower, but steady, not to mention Kostornaya who pre-Covid looked like she is it.

Both Trusova and Scherbakova already have lengthy careers, with Sherbakova already winning Olympic title later in life than Zagitova and having longer careers. And you saw Trusova cry too, and so far she seems game to continue… unless life takes her elsewhere. But that would be her choice, just like Liu’s. In Trusova’s case, she is not being overtaken by 3 challengers who were clearly stronger than her like Zagitova was.

The squeeze that triple-A put on Zagitova and Medvedeva is no longer there. Everything is possible in terms of top Russian skaters atm 15 and 25. Trusova had been trying everything from physics to having a boyfriend, while jumping long jumps. Kostornaya finally left Tutberidze. Etc, etc, etc. those women have lives.

You are not bemoaning technical difficulty or age of the competitors per se, you are bemoaning the sheer beguiling quantity of Russian women who are all very good. So, yes, one comes on top, another comes on top next time, but a lot of them were staying in the mix if they could make top ten nationally. The current uncertainty, if anything, will do more to thin the cohorts than any age limit increase.

Technical difficulty will not go away with increased age limit. The length of a senior career will not extend.

The only thing that is going to change is for how long junior career lasts vs senior. Junior careers for someone like Trusova will be 4 years long. That’s all.

Expecting someone to go back to 2000’s skating is like using dial-up modem. It’s gone, dude. Irretrievably.

 

[Charlotte 71]

Okay, I pulled data on Kwan, and she is no different whatsoever from Russians where age is concerned. In fact, she is younger.

she is July born, 1980, just like Akat’yeva, on the same actual day (!), July 7th, so she is age-1 for eligibility.

In 1993-1994 she won Junior Worlds, the only one she went to, the first she is eligible for at 13.

She then went seniors immediately, in 1994-95, at 14, younger than Russians of current crop did. Russians had to continue to compete in Juniors. This would have been equivalent of Akat’yeva winning JWC last year and moving to seniors this coming fall.

So, on she went at 14 into seniors, where she skated till 2004-2005 season when she is 24 in figure skating years, I.e younger than Tuktamysheva. It was also her first season under IJS, and she immediately fell out of medals. Immediately.

So Kwan’s ‘longevity’ is facilitated by extremely early entry into seniors. And, the 6.0 system where they gave medals to whoever they liked the best/seniority. She jumped triples. I assure you, if competitions in Russia demanded triples, and Russia had 3x more spots, they would all stay on till 24 like Kwan.

Kwan’s wiki doesn’t list any firsts or records. She just got medals and nobody scrutinized her technical content or asked if she can even do 3A.

For her time, Kwan had superior technical content. She was one of the first to do all five triples, all except Axel, and to include two triple lutzes nearly every time she skated a long program. And she sometimes included a triple-triple, which was a reach technically at the start of her career, if not by the end of it. By then, her jump content was still pretty competitive, but she wasn't going to retool her elements at that point with the transitions and levels to win under IJS. But it was that consistency, combined with her other performance strengths, that carried her through such a long period at the top - most of her competitors couldn't put together the seven-triple program as dependably as she could. It's not 6.0's fault. If Sasha Cohen or another skater of that era had been able to get the job done as routinely as Michelle did, then they would be the one with Michelle's legacy.

Anna S. reminds me of Michelle in that sense - she keeps finding a way to win against every new sheriff in town who comes at her. I hope she is allowed to compete and sticks around.

 

[mrrice]

You do understand that this age limit would have shaved off 3 years from Kwan’s senior career, right?

I noted that both Irina and Michell won their Junior World Titles and continued skating. They each went to 2 Olympics and some of these young skaters retire, rather than invest in Training, Travel, Coaches, and Accommodations. I don't blame them. I think they should make a bigger deal out of Junior Worlds as they are usually not well attended. When I went in 2001, I could basically sit anywhere I liked.

 

[lariko]

For her time, Kwan had superior technical content. She was one of the first to do all five triples, all except Axel, and to include two triple lutzes nearly every time she skated a long program. And she sometimes included a triple-triple, which was a reach technically at the start of her career, if not by the end of it. By then, her jump content was still pretty competitive, but she wasn't going to retool her elements at that point with the transitions and levels to win under IJS. But it was that consistency, combined with her other performance strengths, that carried her through such a long period at the top - most of her competitors couldn't put together the seven-triple program as dependably as she could. It's not 6.0's fault. If Sasha Cohen or another skater of that era had been able to get the job done as routinely as Michelle did, then they would be the one with Michelle's legacy.

Anna S. reminds me of Michelle in that sense - she keeps finding a way to win against every new sheriff in town who comes at her. I hope she is allowed to compete and sticks around.

Then, she is exactly like the Russians, only started a little earlier and had less competition internally and externally on her level, always guaranteeing her a spot. So, lucky her.

 

[lariko]

You do understand that this age limit would have shaved off 3 years from Kwan’s senior career, right?

I noted that both Irina and Michell won their Junior World Titles and continued skating. They each went to 2 Olympics and some of these skaters retire, rather than invest in Training, Travel, Coaches, and Accommodations. I don't blame them. I think they should make a bigger deal out of Junior Worlds as they are usually not well attended. When I went in 2001, I could basically sit anywhere I liked.

Actually 4 years. You saw that she went seniors at 14, right? You understand that? Yes? That with current age restrictions you need to add up the junior and senior years to get any kind of equivalency in career duration? You understand that they can’t just take in 3 girls per country every 8 years for the sake of simplicity so there is always the same champion? That’s what competition is when it is close. Many try and it’s red-hot, and there are no guarantees. This also means that technical level shifted to the new step, when triple-triple, quad and 3A are not something just one woman can do reliably, but more than 3. Far more…

 

[mrrice]

And if Butyrskaya retired at 16… so what? There is always someone who wins a competition. Another deserving woman athlete would have won. That’s all that would have happened. It’s not the end of the world.

Lariko, Maria Made History. I'll also add that during her time, there was no ETERI school for these skaters to attend. Plushenko, was still competing and their Men, and Pairs, were the priority. If Maria hadn't won in 1999, than it would have been Michelle's Title. Maria was First, and that makes her an Historic Figure.

 

[lariko]

Lariko, Maria Made History. I'll also add that during her time, the was no ETERI school for these skaters to attend. Plushenko, was still competing and their Men, and Pairs, were the priority. If Maria hadn't won in 1999, than it would have been Michelle's Title. Maria was First, and that makes her an Historic Figure.

And… so what? There would have been someone else. Except for it being even more boring as Chen or Hanyu for 4 years, like, not Kwan again feels…. Russian skating isn’t about Tutberidze. There’re tons of talented men, women and coaches. They’ll do fine if they are let to compete, no matter what age they enter seniors at.

 

[mrrice]

And… so what? There would have been someone else. Except for it being even more boring as Chen or Hanyu for 4 years, like, not Kwan again feels…. Russian skating isn’t about Tutberidze. There’re tons of talented men, women and coaches. They’ll do fine if they are let to compete, no matter what age they enter seniors at.

I hope you are very young. I can't imagine going to an event, seeing Maria, and saying "You were first, So What! There is fun and History on this site. I'm sure every skater knows about Goldenskate. You obviously know about skating so, you should try being nice.

 

[lariko]

I hope you are very young. I can't imagine going to an event, seeing Maria, and saying "You were first, So What! There is fun and History on this site. I'm sure every skater knows about Goldenskate. You obviously know about skating so, you should try being nice.

I like close competitions and suspense. That’s why I like Russian skating scene, because there are so many of them and they are all so fabulous. That’s why I simultaneously despise Tutberidze, because she always has a thumb on the scale (and that’s not even the worst thing about her). If it wasn’t for her, most Russian competitions where just how I like them. When there is no telling in advance who’s going to win/how they will place, but the competition would be exciting and high class. Hence, I prefer pairs and men. Or used to prefer pairs until Tutberidze acquired a pair.

Why do you think I like juniors? That’s why.


I’m more like, first, grats, but if it weren’t you, no biggie. Someone else just as awesome would have won.

 

[mrrice]

And… so what? There would have been someone else. Except for it being even more boring as Chen or Hanyu for 4 years, like, not Kwan again feels…. Russian skating isn’t about Tutberidze. There’re tons of talented men, women and coaches. They’ll do fine if they are let to compete, no matter what age they enter seniors at.

Well, we know that's not going to happen, at least not for a year as they sort out this issue.

 

[lariko]

For those trying to diminish Kwans’s accomplishments, you do realize we could say the same for Medvedva and Zagitova. They only won because the girls with quads hadn’t arrived yet. There were girls attempting 3axels and attempting quads in the 6.0 days.

Actually, what I am saying is that Kwan is no different from Russians at all. In fact her trajectory is exactly the same as Trusova’s so far, except Trusova spent an extra year in juniors that Kwan didn’t have to do (because of absence of age limits at the time) and Kwan didn’t have a Covid season or was banned for a year for no fault of her own.

If Trusova goes into next Olympics, she will have exactly the same career duration as Kwan. However, she has to make this descisions in far less favourable circumstances than Kwan.

And I said this exact thing about Zagitova. She simply had 3 women who would take international assignments over her, except GP. If she did not, she wouldn’t have to retire. Medvedeva retired because of injury, not because she didn’t want to continue competing.

 

[Jeanie19]

Actually, what I am saying is that Kwan is no different from Russians at all. In fact her trajectory is exactly the same as Trusova’s so far, except Trusova spent an extra year in juniors that Kwan didn’t have to do (because of absence of age limits at the time) and Kwan didn’t have a Covid season or was banned for a year for no fault of her own.

If Trusova goes into next Olympics, she will have exactly the same career duration as Kwan. However, she has to make this descisions in far less favourable circumstances than Kwan.

And I said this exact thing about Zagitova. She simply had 3 women who would take international assignments over her, except GP. If she did not, she wouldn’t have to retire. Medvedeva retired because of injury, not because she didn’t want to continue competing.

And Evgenia had 2 seasons in juniors and 5 seasons in seniors, last international competition 2 days before she turned 20. So she didn't retire at 17.

 

[lariko]

And Evgenia had 2 seasons in juniors and 5 seasons in seniors, last international competition 2 days before she turned 20. So she didn't retire at 17.

There you go. And the gold/silver at the Olympics was pretty close between her and Zagitova. So, the complaints aware not age based, the complaints are because figure skating in booming and competition is close. I like it better that way than with one leader forever and way ahead of others. Like, I love Chen, but I was happy that I was at Skate Am where Zhou won.

Or do people want figure skating to boom, but only one or two people always win? Imo it would suck for the rest and mean that competition is weak. And, honestly, if people want longer careers, go to the smaller competitions and generate revenue so senior skaters could be paid to attend more competitions outside GP and EU/4CC and worlds. They need to eat, even if they don’t eat much.

 

[macy]

this thread needs to be closed.

 

[lariko]

this thread needs to be closed.

Sure, close it. The decision is made. Everyone will adapt. Hurray for junior sport! Give it a chance, peeps. You might not know what you’re missing. And, like, respect efforts and achieve TS of junior athletes for winning their stages and their worlds.

 

[macy]

Sure, close it. The decision is made. Everyone will adapt. Hurray for junior sport! Give it a chance, peeps. You might not know what you’re missing. And, like, respect efforts and achieve TS of junior athletes for winning their stages and their worlds.

i'm talking about the rehashing of the Valieva situation thats seeped in here when there is no new information to discuss, not even the actual rule change.

 

[jenaj]

Actually 4 years. You saw that she went seniors at 14, right? You understand that? Yes? That with current age restrictions you need to add up the junior and senior years to get any kind of equivalency in career duration? You understand that they can’t just take in 3 girls per country every 8 years for the sake of simplicity so there is always the same champion? That’s what competition is when it is close. Many try and it’s red-hot, and there are no guarantees. This also means that technical level shifted to the new step, when triple-triple, quad and 3A are not something just one woman can do reliably, but more than 3. Far more…

I think she actually went senior at 13. She competed at 1994 Worlds.

 

[lariko]

I think she actually went senior at 13. She competed at 1994 Worlds.

There you go.

 

[jenaj]

Then, she is exactly like the Russians, only started a little earlier and had less competition internally and externally on her level, always guaranteeing her a spot. So, lucky her.

She had a lot of competition internally. She had Lipinski, Hughes and Cohen to contend with (and before that, Kerrigan, Harding and Bobek) and still managed to win 9 National titles including 8 in a row. Her one loss in a 10 year run starting in 1996 was to Lipinski. Her losses at the Olympics were also to other Americans. Internationally, she had to beat two top Russian skaters and lost Worlds to them three times.