ISU proposals: Jumps, spin for 2024-25

[DancingCactus]

But they haven't done a Lutz. Maybe they did a flip. Or a flutz. The problem with Lutz edges is that sometimes, especially when only seen at normal speed, it's not easy to judge if the edge was really wrong.

Whereas a fall is a fall.

 

[icewhite]

I think this is not about appreciating skills or not, it's simply a decision about what they think attracts an audience: the current system really rewards taking risks and hence we have seen skaters attempt and land all these jumps. Records often bring an audience. "Women can now jump quads, too! the first skater ever to land a 4F! A 4A!" Not sure it really works in this specific sport in terms of audience attraction outside of Russia, but it surely is a major reason the system will not give 0 points to a jump that ends with a fall. Even if personally I tend to support that, because for me there are just too many yolo jumps and programs with skaters going for content they fail at again and again. It may make the sport more exciting - will they fall or land it?!!, but it takes a lot from the beauty of many programs and also it sometimes rewards people who do not really "have" a jump, but land it at the right time.

 

[Mathman]

But they haven't done a Lutz.

Well, that's the question. Have they done a" flawed Lutz" or have they done a "funny-looking flip"? (I don't think that a "Flutz" is an ISU recognized jump.) One point of view is that what "defines" a Lutz is the counter-rotaion, not the edge per se. If you release the counter-rotaion prematurely (by wobbling over to the inside at the last moment) then you have presented a flawed Lutz.

(Not everyone agrees with this use of terminology, of course.)

The problem with Lutz edges is that sometimes, especially when only seen at normal speed, it's not easy to judge if the edge was really wrong.

Whereas a fall is a fall.

I am not so sure about that, either. There are iInstances where a skter brushes the ice with his backside but still supports the majority of his weight on his skates. Or a skater might teeter and totter and flail around before pitching onto all fours to avoid the dreaded "butt on ice." In figure skating, everything is a nuanced gradation.

That's one point of view --YMMD But it'snot like, for instance, the sport of rodeo, where the standard announcement over the PA system when a rider falls off the horse is: "Let's give that cowboy a big round ofapplause, folks -- that's all he's going to get for that ride."

 

[cheerknithanson]

Let’s just remember: proposed rule does not equal that it’ll pass through. I’m sure there are plenty of proposed rules that have failed to pass through.

This proposal (Reducing jump and spin numbers) seems kind of stupid tbh. I hope it doesn’t pass through. Current system is fine. Changing it up will ruin the balance of a FP. Stupid to change it in the middle of an Olympic cycle.

 

[lariko]

I hope these rules don't pass, because they also reduce number of combos. And combos is about the most attractive part, plus it allows for fairer judging. It is going to be like junior women where there is zero rhyme or reason to scoring since everyone skates the same program basically. Plus, why take out spins? It will make already empty programs on lower levels even emptier.

On the other hand, I don't think it will harm jumpers. If they can repeat the same jump 3x, 3x4Lz program would be fun, and the best jumpers won't need doubles, plus some of them wouldn't even need tripples. Enter Malinin with 4Ts or 3As replacing 3Ts....

 

[lariko]

Also, with a change of rules like that, they should then stop calculating women's and men's PCS ratio differently. It should be the same, because women would be able to have TES even closer to an average man than it is now.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I hope these rules don't pass, because they also reduce number of combos. And combos is about the most attractive part, plus it allows for fairer judging. It is going to be like junior women where there is zero rhyme or reason to scoring since everyone skates the same program basically. Plus, why take out spins? It will make already empty programs on lower levels even emptier.

On the other hand, I don't think it will harm jumpers. If they can repeat the same jump 3x, 3x4Lz program would be fun, and the best jumpers won't need doubles, plus some of them wouldn't even need tripples. Enter Malinin with 4Ts or 3As replacing 3Ts....

It doesn't make sense to have less spins in the FP. I really hope this is dead once June comes around and the voting starts. I don't mean to sound mean, but who was the idiot that came up with that proposal?

 

[AlexBreeze]

Let’s just remember: proposed rule does not equal that it’ll pass through. I’m sure there are plenty of proposed rules that have failed to pass through.

This proposal (Reducing jump and spin numbers) seems kind of stupid tbh. I hope it doesn’t pass through. Current system is fine. Changing it up will ruin the balance of a FP. Stupid to change it in the middle of an Olympic cycle.

There's a Russian journalist who travelled to Worlds and talked to the officials. She claims that six jumps in the FS are definitely happening. She also said that the backflip would be allowed and the BV of the spins and StSq would be increased.

Yes, I don't get why they are changing everything in the middle of the cycle.

 

[Mathman]

This proposal (Reducing jump and spin numbers) seems kind of stupid tbh. I hope it doesn’t pass through. Current system is fine. Changing it up will ruin the balance of a FP. Stupid to change it in the middle of an Olympic cycle.

I think that the udea of the proposal is that the IJS has gotten out of balance and that some changes are needed to restore the concept of the "balanced program." Ilia Malinin, for instance, just scored 23 points, 17 points and 17 points on his three combos. That's 57 points for about 6 seconds work out of a 4-minute program. Plus another another 57 points for his 4 quads in the first half. The current scoring rul;es provide little incentive for him to do anything else, or even to present a program at all.

If the changes are too great they may not be implemented right away, even if the proposal passes.

 

[cheerknithanson]

There's a Russian journalist who travelled to Worlds and talked to the officials. She claims that six jumps in the FS are definitely happening. She also said that the backflip would be allowed and the BV of the spins and StSq would be increased.

Yes, I don't get why they are changing everything in the middle of the cycle.

Yeah...I'm not going to believe that. As I said earlier, proposal does not equal it definitely happening.

 

[Mathman]

On the other hand,,, If they can repeat the same jump 3x, 3x4Lz program would be fun,

To me. a program that had one 4LZ, one 4F, and one 4Lo would be even more fun.

 

[AlexBreeze]

On the other hand, I don't think it will harm jumpers. If they can repeat the same jump 3x, 3x4Lz program would be fun, and the best jumpers won't need doubles, plus some of them wouldn't even need tripples. Enter Malinin with 4Ts or 3As replacing 3Ts....

It won't harm jumpers. It will probably help ones with difficult combos.

Right now most women compete with 7 triples and two 2As. They don't need to do difficult combos (like 3+3) to have this BV. For instance, Ziegler avoids 3+3s. With just 6 jumping passes, skaters with solid 3+3 will have an advantage.

 

[4everchan]

There's a Russian journalist who travelled to Worlds and talked to the officials. She claims that six jumps in the FS are definitely happening. She also said that the backflip would be allowed and the BV of the spins and StSq would be increased.

Yes, I don't get why they are changing everything in the middle of the cycle.

I like the changes because I believe it helps both the jumpers and those who are better at spins and steps, but I agree : they usually don't make these changes right in the middle of the quad cycle. WEIRD.

 

[4everchan]

To me. a program that had one 4LZ, one 4F, and one 4Lo would be even more fun.

Sounds like a Daniel Grassl program...

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

Sounds like a Daniel Grassl program...

Wow, Grassl. I wonder if he'll be back after the summer. Was there ever any update about him? To be honest, I lived in bliss this season with Frangi, Nik, and Matteo competing at the big championships.

 

[cheerknithanson]

They already decreased from 8 to 7 and 4:30 to 4:00 for the 2018-2019 forward. We don’t need another drastic change this soon. Increasing BV for spins I think would be alright.

 

[TontoK]

I wish they'd leave the free programs alone, and instead experiment with the short programs to permit more direct comparison between skaters on at least some elements.

For instance, a basic unleveled change-foot camel spin. No donut, no catchfoot, no bent leg, no change of edge, nothing like that. Basic position held x number of rotations on each foot. Or a classic layback with no change of position within the spin.

 

[YuBluByMe]

It doesn't make sense to have less spins in the FP. I really hope this is dead once June comes around and the voting starts. I don't mean to sound mean, but who was the idiot that came up with that proposal?

Could be anyone. The ISU is ran by idiots, after all. They do this all the time . A silly rule is created. That rule backfires. And a few years later another silly rule is implemented to counteract the previous one.

One of the issues is that the silliest rules are aimed at only one or two skaters, which is something I hate. Such rules are bound to not turn out the way as planned because these rules will be for everyone, not just one or two skaters.

I believe the “six-jump/three allowed repeats” proposal is meant to correct the rule that only one quad can be repeated. This rule was meant for Nathan Chen as he was one of the very few skaters even repeating quads in the free skate in the first place. At the time, people thought he would be at a disadvantage, but it should have been obvious (at least it was to me) that that wouldn’t be the case. How does such a thing hurt someone that can land all the jumps? It turned out that Chen was more dominant than ever and that rule played a part. A small one, but a part it played.

This new proposal will of course result in a bigger gap between the big jumpers and everyone else.

ISU needs to stop fiddling with the rules every ten minutes and, most of all, stop trying to handicap the jumps. If the goal is to even the playing field, that’s not the way to go about it.

(And why does the field need to be even in the first place?)

 

[4everchan]

Wow, Grassl. I wonder if he'll be back after the summer. Was there ever any update about him? To be honest, I lived in bliss this season with Frangi, Nik, and Matteo competing at the big championships.

you know how much I like my Frangi... so yeah... It was awesome to see him at Worlds. I am not sure what the update is on Grassl. Ask his mama ? @elektra blue

 

[AlexBreeze]

ISU needs to stop fiddling with the rules every ten minutes and, most of all

The spins rules at the beginning of the season were enough, really.