ISU proposals: Jumps, spin for 2024-25 | Golden Skate

ISU proposals: Jumps, spin for 2024-25

gsk8

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Jun 21, 2003
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United-States
Article from TASS

Translation to English:

MOSCOW, January 25. /TASS/. The Technical Committee of the International Skating Union (ISU) is discussing proposals to simplify the rules in single and pair skating for the next congress of the organization. TASS was reported by a source.

In particular, there were proposals to reduce the number of mandatory jumps in the free program in single skating from seven to six, to allow the repetition of one jump three times - previously this was possible no more than twice, the number of cascades and combinations is proposed to be reduced from three to two, one spin to be replaced by a choreographic rotation. In pairs, it is proposed to reduce the number of supports with levels from three to two, to remove the solo jump.

The 59th ISU Congress will be held on June 10-14 in Las Vegas.

Note: The official agenda should be released in Apr-May time-frame.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Why are TASS and Pravda the only news organizations that knpw what the U.S. Skating Federation is proposing to the ISU? Or are these the only media sources left that care enough to report on it?

Anyway, cut out one jump and one cascade and one spin. And replace these three elements with an extra "choreographic rotation"? There must be more to the proposal than has been reported so far. I will keep an open mind, but so far the thrust of the proposal seems to be nothing more than reducing the substance and variety of a figure skating performance. What is the upside?
 

zebobes

Final Flight
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Mar 29, 2012
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Taiwan
There are ideas within these proposals that could be interesting, but may be somewhat lost in translation.

3 jump repeats: While this sounds like a bad idea, I wonder if the repeats could possibly be referring to any number of rotations-i.e., 4toe, 3toe, and 2toe would count as repeats. If that is the case, that could make zayak rules less complicated, as skaters wouldn't need to worry about the effects of popped jumps, but if the rules mean you can have three double toes, three triple toes, and three quad toes, this would be a very bad thing. With only 6 jumping passes, the importance of triple-triples will also be elevated, as currently skaters can rely on 2A sequences to get in 7 triples for seven jumping passes, but at least one triple-triple would be needed with six.

Another possible ramification is that this would help to balance the difference between technical ability and artistry, as the ceiling of technical scores would be lowered... but skaters like Ilia would still be able to rack up huge points with six jumping passes.

I think one unleveled spin could be a great thing, if skaters are incentivized to make a truly quality spin that has a unique look. Some of the top skaters are creating interesting choreo sequences, and I think that the ISU should go even more GOE focused, with a lower base value and higher GOE potential like dance. The judges would also then need to withhold the high scores for the skaters who really do something musical and eye catching.

Again, all of these could be interesting, but it depends on the details and execution of the rules. The ISU would need to prove to the skaters that creativity and execution will be rewarded so that skaters actually spend the time working on the areas to balance the two.
 

Bluediamonds09

Medalist
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Sep 8, 2016
If these new proposals come to pass:
The new rules don't mean sh!t if the judges won't enforce the rules or use them properly. If the goal of these proposals is to bring back artistry, well, if the judges keep being willy-nilly with awarding +GOE and giving undeserving SS an 8, what's the point?? Nothing will change.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I am starting to think more about the proposal. I assume that the motivation is to discourage a skater from winning by racking up as many quads as possible and nothing else.

But is this really a problem that need addressing? Yes, we see some programs that are heavy on tech and light on the everything else part, but at the very highest level the big fireworks competitors are no slouches in skating skills, choreography and presentation either.

At the 2022 Olympics Nathan Chen did 7 quads and beat Yuma Kafiyama who only did 6 (one badly). But Chen also has fine skating skills and presentation, no problem.

Alexandra Trusova quadded her way into our hearts. Her "second mark" scores are not at the level of, say, Anna Shcherbakova or Kamila Valieva, but her programs are by no means "empty," exhibiting as they do plenty of well-presented transitional skating woven nicely together in the total program.

On the other hand a competitor like Jason Brown who delights audiences (and himself :) ) with what he can do on skates -- he already gets top marks for what he specializes in. It is not clear that he would benefit if an extra jump or spin were removed from everybody's element list.
 
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4everchan

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Mar 7, 2015
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Martinique
I am starting to think more about the proposal. I assume that the motivation is to discourage a skater from winning by racking up as many quads as possible and nothing else.

But is this really a problem that need addressing? Yes, we see some programs that are heavy on tech and light on the everything else part, but at the very highest level the big fireworks competitors are no slouches in skating skills, choreography and presentation either.

At the 2022 Olympics Nathan Chen did 7 quads and beat Yuma Kafiyama who only did 6 (one badly). But Chen also has fine skating skills and presentation, no problem.

Alexandra Trusova quadded her way into our hearts. Her "second mark" scores are not at the level of, say, Anna Shcherbakova or Kamila Valieva, but her programs are by no means "empty," exhibiting as they do plenty of well-presented transitional skating woven nicely together in the total program.

On the other hand a competitor like Jason Brown who delights audiences (and himself :) ) with what he can do on skates -- he already gets top marks for what he specializes in. It is not clear that he would benefit if an extra jump or spin were removed from everybody's element list.
I see this rule proposal more as an indication of what kind of programs are wanted. Right now, under the current system, there is no denying quadsters are largely favoured. They can earn dozens of points more than an aesthetic skater with great choreo and skills can earn with thier PCs advantage. I do not think naming specific skaters is necessarily the right approach. What would be interesting : how the field would adapt to the new rules. As we have seen recently, coaches have become points milkers optimizing each new possible trick available, like back loading or tanos were at some point and now with the 2a sequence... Looking forward to seeing how a more balanced vision of the sport would be. Not saying this is the best idea... But I see it as an attempt for better programs
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Haven't the skaters themselves said they would like one less jumping pass? Or am I making that up in a fever dream?

(excuse me, I have been obsessed with content on a non-skating Jason the past 24 hours. Usually I try to look these things up, but not until I get over the sads. :cry:IYKYK and if you don't, you can safely ignore this parenthetical)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I wish that they bring back the spiral sequence for ladies, I miss this element and this generation of skating with amazing spiral sequence like Sasha Cohen, Caroline Zhang, Mao Asada, etc.
Amen. One of the casualties in the IJS revolution. In the rush to measure and quantify, as well as to reward difficulty, spirals were left out in the cold. They are easy to do, but hard to do well. "Well" means subjective evaluation. Sasha Cohen had beautiful upper body position but was criticized for weak edges. How to instruct the judges as to how the element should be scored?
 

gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
Amen. One of the casualties in the IJS revolution. In the rush to measure and quantify, as well as to reward difficulty, spirals were left out in the cold. They are easy to do, but hard to do well. "Well" means subjective evaluation. Sasha Cohen had beautiful upper body position but was criticized for weak edges. How to instruct the judges as to how the element should be scored?
Well, in the early years of IJS there was a required level spiral sequence in both the short program and free skate for women's singles, and the difficulty was quantified in all the level features.

Personally I thought too many of the level features were focused on difficult positions and not enough on difficult edge work/transitions between positions.

If anything, I'd say that there was a rush to measure and quantify spirals and to reward certain kinds of difficulty.

Then several years later the rules were changed to encourage variety and creativity in the use of connecting moves (by eliminating the element from the short program to allow more time between elements, and by replacing it with a choreographic sequence in the free skate), at the expense of requiring sustained spiral positions. Although at least one brief spiral position was originally required in the women's choreo sequence.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Sometimes it seems like all this goes back to school figures. In figures the only thing that counts is mastery of the blade (and whatever body-balencing techniques are required to support it). This is how I regard a spiral (with the exfra embellishment of maintaining a pleasing upper body position). Instead of tracing a circle the skater traces, well, a spiral.

Dancing on ice also has an honorable history, going back at least to Jackson Haines (1838-1875) and before that to recreational socializing. The modern sport, I guess you could call it ice acrobatics (altough real ice acrobats like Frick and Frack or Besedin and Polishchuk might object). We are still struggling with unifying these three aspects into one sport. I guess that's why the sport is so fascinating.
 

surimi

Congrats to Sota, currently #6 in World Standings!
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Nov 12, 2013
Haven't the skaters themselves said they would like one less jumping pass? Or am I making that up in a fever dream?

(excuse me, I have been obsessed with content on a non-skating Jason the past 24 hours. Usually I try to look these things up, but not until I get over the sads. :cry:IYKYK and if you don't, you can safely ignore this parenthetical)

What's up with jason? Has he confirmed this is his last competitive season?

Re. the new proposed rules, I think I also recall some skaters saying a couple of years ago that the shortened time for FS is very hard for 7 jump passes, and takes away their stamina for other elements. If it benefits most skaters, I support taking away one jump pass, and hopefully we'd see more energetic steps and spins.

I'm not sure how I feel about the jump repeat rule. I like when skaters are able to show all jumps (save maybe one which is their weakest or they cannot perform it for health reasons), whether as triples or doubles.

No increase in GoE for quality spins again? Meh. And taking away one spin and substituting it for some abstract rotational move concept? Yikes, no. Adding something this murky and arbitrary sounds like a great way to justify rewarding those who feds and judges want to push, at the expense of others. As if sky high PCS for consistent jumpers not showing much in terms of SS or IN wasn't enough. I hope this doesn't pass.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What's up with jason? Has he confirmed this is his last competitive season?
El_henry, a football fan, is referring here to Jason Kelce, star center of the Philadelphia Eagles, who recently announced his retirement.

As for the "choreogaphy rotational element," I am actually intrigued to see what skaters will come up with. To me, the leveled spins suffer from the emphasis on ticking off level features. A rotational move that is judged by originality of concept and by how well it supports the vision of the choreography -- maybr the idea holds promise?
 
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el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Mar 3, 2014
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What's up with jason? Has he confirmed this is his last competitive season?

Re. the new proposed rules, I think I also recall some skaters saying a couple of years ago that the shortened time for FS is very hard for 7 jump passes, and takes away their stamina for other elements. If it benefits most skaters, I support taking away one jump pass, and hopefully we'd see more energetic steps and spins.

I'm not sure how I feel about the jump repeat rule. I like when skaters are able to show all jumps (save maybe one which is their weakest or they cannot perform it for health reasons), whether as triples or doubles.

No increase in GoE for quality spins again? Meh. And taking away one spin and substituting it for some abstract rotational move concept? Yikes, no. Adding something this murky and arbitrary sounds like a great way to justify rewarding those who feds and judges want to push, at the expense of others. As if sky high PCS for consistent jumpers not showing much in terms of SS or IN wasn't enough. I hope this doesn't pass.


Thank you for your recollections.

I was too obscure. @Mathman is right (as always). When I said "non skater Jason" I meant a Jason who does not and never has skated (well ice hockey in high school), as in Kelce. I was trying not to divert the thread too much, just explain why I was too districted to look up things.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Re. the new proposed rules, I think I also recall some skaters saying a couple of years ago that the shortened time for FS is very hard for 7 jump passes, and takes away their stamina for other elements.
To me, a spectacular jump is an exclamation point highlighting a chreographic/musical climax. A skater's jump card should not be an obstacle course to force oneself through as in steeplechase.

Coincidently the standard steeplechase (for humans) features 7 water jumps -- one too many? ;)
 
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