I realize it's "early days" for him as far as his new technique is concerned. Hoping we'll get some "clean quad clips" as soon as they come around for him. The footwork is a delight, but technical progress is the name of the game and the only thing standing in his way for success in the coming years.
Jason Brown
- Thread starter Tavi...
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- Joined
- May 28, 2018
Kori did a great job with Jason, but he clearly would have benefited.from a team approach. Her weakness is the technique and the timing of training jumps. He should have been training at least one quad earlier, along with the 3A. It’s not clear what caused the injury on 2016, but he did get proper rehab in Colorado. A coaching change at that time might have made a big difference.
I was hoping that he would skate The Piano at Nationals 2018 and go clean. He didn’t need the quad. But they stuck to Inner Love. After Ross turned in his program of a lifetime, both Jason and Adam looked desperate. And Jason went for the quad and the rest was traumatic.
But he’s where he needs to be now. He’ll get over the trauma. I hope he can grow this year’s free into something special by Nationals. And I’m looking forward to seeing successful quads and great skating.
I’m in my last day of my trip here in Colorado and am also happy with the election results here. Back to New York tomorrow.
I was hoping that he would skate The Piano at Nationals 2018 and go clean. He didn’t need the quad. But they stuck to Inner Love. After Ross turned in his program of a lifetime, both Jason and Adam looked desperate. And Jason went for the quad and the rest was traumatic.
But he’s where he needs to be now. He’ll get over the trauma. I hope he can grow this year’s free into something special by Nationals. And I’m looking forward to seeing successful quads and great skating.
I’m in my last day of my trip here in Colorado and am also happy with the election results here. Back to New York tomorrow.
The only aspect of Jason's skating that gives me pause is the fact it took him so long to get the 3A. 3 years, I believe. I fear that may be an indication that a consistent quad, in the end, may elude him. Throw in that he's not "young" anymore, and it's even more of a detriment.
On the flip side, we have all seen the few clips of him landing a beautiful 4toe!! So we know he has done it, albeit, not consistently. Will the Orser team be able to tweak his technique to get him the consistency? Will Jason be able to adjust to knew methods this late in the game? So many variables. These guys putting out the goods nowadays appear to have a fearlessness to their attack on these jumps like we've never seen before. Takes a certain aggressiveness. Without that attribute, I don't believe these insane revolutions are obtainable on a consistent basis.
The next couple of years, I believe, will reveal whether Jason will be able to cross the finish line.
On the flip side, we have all seen the few clips of him landing a beautiful 4toe!! So we know he has done it, albeit, not consistently. Will the Orser team be able to tweak his technique to get him the consistency? Will Jason be able to adjust to knew methods this late in the game? So many variables. These guys putting out the goods nowadays appear to have a fearlessness to their attack on these jumps like we've never seen before. Takes a certain aggressiveness. Without that attribute, I don't believe these insane revolutions are obtainable on a consistent basis.
The next couple of years, I believe, will reveal whether Jason will be able to cross the finish line.
- Joined
- May 28, 2018
A lot of the quad kings also have trouble with the 3A. That’s why he should have been training them earlier. I think Kori’s weakness in training jumps contributed to the difficulty with the 3A. She called in specialists, but what Jason and Jordan needed was more consistent jump training. The successful quadsters learned them as teens. Age and body mass makes it harder to learn the technique. If anyone can teach Jason the technique, it’s Team Orser. Given Jason’s work ethic and determination, there is a high probability for success.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2017
I am on the I-ice, I am on the I-ice!!! Last week when I left, there must have been some delay because it still said rinkside.
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
I've always felt that a skater staying with the same coach for years and years is not a good practice. Say what you will about Johnny Weir but when he left Priscilla Hill it was a move in the right direction - just like I feel Jason's move from Kori was. So unless you use a lot of consulting judges I think you get caught in the same ol' same ol'! Same with choreographers. Just my opinion of course but it's always nice to have a set of fresh eyes. I hesitate to make observations about Jason and his skating (altho I'm not too fond of Simon and Garfunkel) because it's so early in the season. Jason historically gets better and better as the season goes on. Hope springs eternal. I think the fact that he's beginning the rotation of his jumps slightly sooner than before should help get that quad. He can certainly do the rotation for it.
Nice photos of Jason at Skate Canada:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp4ZbUmh6Tf/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1tzwfbd8ohh16
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp4ZbUmh6Tf/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1tzwfbd8ohh16
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2018
I was rewatching Jason's FS from SCI and it's slowly growing on me, I'm excited to see it at IdF! I also realized that another reason I thought it was a strange FS for him at first is because his jumps are more spread out now instead of mostly being in the 2nd half and the footwork is at the end instead and he's doing a different 3 jump combo, I guess I got used to the format of his skates from previous years 
I was rewatching Jason's FS from SCI and it's slowly growing on me, I'm excited to see it at IdF! I also realized that another reason I thought it was a strange FS for him at first is because his jumps are more spread out now instead of mostly being in the 2nd half and the footwork is at the end instead and he's doing a different 3 jump combo, I guess I got used to the format of his skates from previous years
I'm low-key obsessed with it now. I have watched it more times than the SP at this point. As I've said like other times, I kinda like the different feeling he's invoking. I kinda like that we're seeing different sides of Jason this season, not just on the ice in his programs but also how he conducts interviews. I think this program would have been much more problematic last season, but I think now he can really challenge himself to express a different feeling to connect with the audience.
The footwork is so good.
Interesting question of whether he should have switched after 2016. Obviously moot at this point, but kind of interesting to think about. So one interesting thing that is coming out in interviews and such is that Jason wanted to do a lot of things WELL before now, i.e. cut his hair, switch coaches. The fact they brought Frank in is a good indicator that Jason felt he was ready for some sort of change and likely took some guidance/suggestion from USFS.
The Mariah Bell coaching switch gave me some pause about Kori's openness to have Jason work with other coaches. Raf offered to co-coach with Kori and she refused. When Tomoki switched to Krall, he did a clean break.
Jason was the star student, so I think Kori made more accommodations than others to allow him to get coaching from Frank. But I found it really telling that he did not work with Frank as much during the Olympic season.
Also the other weird thing, in hindsight, for me was the whole "I'll let Jason attempt the quad if he lands 1 out of 3 times in warmup/practice" comment Kori made. I know she played off as oh this is a game and Jason likes a good challenge, but I feel like, perhaps unintentionally, gave Jason the wrong idea that the quad was something he had to "earn" the right to try, rather than just trying. Again, I had supported the idea of Jason focusing on cleaner and more intricate programs, but I really feel like the whole "don't try the quad because you will ruin the program if it's not 'good enough'" really created kind of a mental block with the jump.
As I said, at SCI, I honestly thought they were going to take out the jump because Jason wasn't doing well with it at practice. But no, they simply let him do the attempt. And while he popped it, he did pretty well the rest of the program, so in a sense he knows now that the quad doesn't have define the success of the overall program.
Jason used to be a super fast rotator. If you look at some of his jumps pre-2016-injury, he rotated them fairly quickly, it's something that Kurt Browning/Carol Lane noted when commentating his Riverdance FS at Trophee Eric Bompard. (Speaking of which, he hasn't been in France since then, so it will be nice for him to return there for his GP in two weeks!). I noticed that post-injury he started having more of a delay in his jumps -- they looked bigger, but yeah, it meant he was slow to start the rotations. I'm hoping TCC will find a way to get him to rotate a little sooner bit give him plenty of time for those beautiful big rotations.
Yeah, it's tough to predict how things will go, but I'm glad he is asserting himself and open to rebuilding.
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Thinking back to Trophee Eric Bompard, Jason had a fan meeting then and did the Orange Team Card game. I wonder how he would respond to those questions today.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Yeah, he wanted to do Hamilton as a free skate, right? Which actually would have made FAR more sense. The SP was pretty good, but an FS to Hamilton would probably been far more epic and what he had envisioned for himself. Oh well.
I agree he never was fully on-bard the FS -- though I thought it was quite lovely and beautiful -- it had the potential to be something special, but yeah doesn't matter if he's not into it. But yeah, the red flags went up for me in the articles before GPF when he had to come up, literally, on a story on what the free skate was about. You never heard him do that with The Piano/Scent of Love -- his skating allowed him to do do that for him. And when he brought back the Piano program for 4CC and had that one last special moment with it to win the bronze, it was really obvious to me the difference as far as investment. It made me wish that he brought back The Piano at Nationals -- maybe the result would have been the same, but at least he was far more comfortable with it.
And it's obvious with the SP, he's full-on board with that program too. No fancy explanation required.
I really notice how much more assertive he's been with himself, even in off-ice stuff. For me, it's most apparent in how he's embracing a more mature look after getting the haircut. He knows he looks good and he's definitely showing off more, not to mention he's liking all the tweets from all the 20-somethings (maybe older, ha) that are like "OMG, you look so good/hot/whatever." He likes the attention.
I think it's great he's training with people like Yuzu and Zhenya, who are also quite assertive in how they approach in their skating. I feel pretty good about where he's going too.
Huh, so you're saying his decision to do those training sessions with Frank was a 100 percent Jason-driven decision? Or at least Jason with USFS? Interesting theory.
To give Kori where credit is due -- he did get a national championship and a 4th place Worlds finish under her belt. And she did managed to help him get through the stress fracture and help him have a respectable finish at Worlds 2017. I think there really wasn't an opportunity not only because of the injury, but also because he was still getting relatively good results. It really had to take something drastic like being off the Olympic Team for him to realize it was time to move on.
I just read the Skating article again, and I found this quote also interesting. "I wanted to find a coaching team that valued both the jumps and the performance one in the same." You can read between the lines --that wasn't the case with his previous coaching situation. Rohene definitely loved doing those transition-heavy programs and Kori seem very much about maintaining clean programs. I honestly supported that approach because he did get good scores/results. But in hindsight, itreally didn't work out for him when it came time to be on the big stages. That's why I think I'm really OK about his inconsistency for now -- it's EXTREMELY annoying to see him pop the 4S and have all these errors -- but at least he doesn't have to deal with the "Will I or Won't I" aspect of whether he will do the quad. He has a chance to do it every time. There's a plan and he gets to stick to it.
Hmm - I’m not necessarily saying Jason’s decision to go to Frank was his alone. And I agree Kori has a lot of strengths and she did many amazing things for Jason. But even back in summer 2016, I thought it was weird that the whole thing wasn’t out in the open until pictures started showing up on social media of people who were really excited to meet him at Toyota. Remember? It’s just the story about the “I used to go to Lake Arrowhead every summer so I wanted a change” and Kori’s “I was completely surprised that people thought Jason had left me to go to Frank” just never rang true to me. And it seemed weird to me that after that - except for right before 2017 Worlds - we never heard anything more about him working regularly with Frank, even though he clearly was helping him.
Anyway. That strikes me as one major thing, but things that you and others have brought up could be other pieces of the puzzle. I’m not sure I agree he wasn’t into Inner Love - he seemed pretty excited describing it in that Ted Flett interview - but regardless, I always thought the delay in deciding to go that route and then not getting the choreo until mid July (and it was really complicated and it was supposed to have two quads) was a bad one. And I wonder how it came about. I also thought the decision to work with Froozer last season was questionable (although I can see the arguments for it) and I wonder how much of the decision was his. Also - the constantly changing jump order, when in the past Kori had always trained him for consistency. Maybe he wanted to go back to Piano sooner and was told no. There are so many things it could be. But I keep coming back to the fundamental issue of the team not focusing on quads soon enough, not anticipating the Boyang/Shoma/Nathan revolution, and his comment here about seeking a team who focuses on both on technique and artistry seems telling to me. The strategy of finding other places to gain points was a good one for awhile, but not recognizing its limits and seeing the direction the wind was blowing was a mistake. I am kind of torn because I adore Rohene’s complicated and unusual choreography. But I also think it’s telling that Rohene only did the SP this season, where Jason can really master the choreo because he’s only doing triples.
Anyway, as frustrated as we all are watching his inconsistency this season - and it’s hard because it’s year two and he was almost always so strong and consistent before that - at least this season we know the reason, and it’s a good reason, and there’s light at the end of the tunnel (even if it’s farther away than we’d like). Hopefully we’ll see progress in France and at Nats.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
Hmm!!! Cool idea! Perhaps we will re-ask some of those questions at the upcoming M&G!!
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
Well, I'm going to argue the opposite side, just for fun
I don't buy all the "Kori and Rohene did not anticipate the quad revolution". I think they knew darn well that Jason needed quads. Heck, that's all anyone ever talked about even in 2014.
But with Kori and Rohene, he wasn't getting them. Now, was that a problem with their coaching, their style, whatever? Maybe. But if you believe that your star pupil just isn't able to do all those quads, what do you do? :think: Emphasize, work on, and strengthen that which you know he does better than anyone else.
Now, is that an argument that Kori should have "shared" Jason earlier? Maybe probably, but with who? I looooove Frank, but he clearly was not going to be a full time coach for the next five years. I can't imagine Raf being a good fit for Kori, especially when he dissed Rohene in 2015. Tom Z? I don't see that one either. It's a tough one.
But if Jason's telling me it's a four year process, then I must wait for a four year process. And I hate waiting. :curse:
I don't buy all the "Kori and Rohene did not anticipate the quad revolution". I think they knew darn well that Jason needed quads. Heck, that's all anyone ever talked about even in 2014.
But with Kori and Rohene, he wasn't getting them. Now, was that a problem with their coaching, their style, whatever? Maybe. But if you believe that your star pupil just isn't able to do all those quads, what do you do? :think: Emphasize, work on, and strengthen that which you know he does better than anyone else.Now, is that an argument that Kori should have "shared" Jason earlier? Maybe probably, but with who? I looooove Frank, but he clearly was not going to be a full time coach for the next five years. I can't imagine Raf being a good fit for Kori, especially when he dissed Rohene in 2015. Tom Z? I don't see that one either. It's a tough one.
But if Jason's telling me it's a four year process, then I must wait for a four year process. And I hate waiting. :curse:
Well, I'm going to argue the opposite side, just for fun
I don't buy all the "Kori and Rohene did not anticipate the quad revolution". I think they knew darn well that Jason needed quads. Heck, that's all anyone ever talked about even in 2014.
I don't think it's so much that they didn't anticipate that quads would be a thing or that Jason needed quads, it's that they relied FAR too much, in hindsight, on focusing on the clean program at all costs. And I totally understand the logic. But to the point where you're changing layouts on the morning of competition (or even during the six-minute warmup, which seem to be the case at some of the competitions) is a bit much. I agree with Tavi, I think when it was clear that the best he could do was 7th at Worlds with a clean SP and a solid FS (with a fall on the 4T), that was a clear message then he needed to keep the 4T in there and stick to that layout all season.
Ironically, Adam Rippon had mastered the Jason Brown playbook by the 2017-2018 season. He drove everybody nuts with the default 4Z fall/UR/etc, but he was pretty consistent on everything else.
Jason probably should have been much more assertive that he wasn't happy with this approach. But for whatever reason he didn't and he knows not to do that now, so it's all good.
I think for me it isn't whether Kori should have been "willing" to share Jason but rather discussing in hindsight whether there were signs that Jason was ready to move on before, well, six months ago. There's nothing that can be done now, of course, but the fact there has been very little interaction between Kori and Jason (compared to Rohene, and yes, I know he choreographed his SP, but still Rohene followed him around while he was coach searching) since 2018 4CC, tells me that the coaching relationship had changed for the worst and if I was to guess, it started after his injury in 2016 and kind of festered for the last half of the quad. But the personal relationship Jason still had with Kori (i.e. second mother, et.c) made it really tough to get the clarity that things weren't working.Now, is that an argument that Kori should have "shared" Jason earlier? Maybe probably, but with who? I looooove Frank, but he clearly was not going to be a full time coach for the next five years. I can't imagine Raf being a good fit for Kori, especially when he dissed Rohene in 2015. Tom Z? I don't see that one either. It's a tough one.
I'm honestly sad, cause I was and am still a big Kori fan. I think she has a very novel and interesting approach to coaching and I think it served Jason well for such a long time. Not to mention that Kori did a LOT to make Jason such a great skater, such as getting mentorship from other coaches and even had her first daughter induced so she can be there for Jason at 2010 Nationals (which he won!). So I don't want this to be a trash Kori post, but I have to admit when people were questioning why Jason was still with Kori last season, it was getting more and more difficult to defend given some of the red flags up for me. I'm just happy that Laurine and Courtney seem to have a god vibe with Kori and glad we can see her on the GP circuit with those two.
So another thing I thought of -- it was also interesting that he really limited his time in Monument after 2018 Nationals, including opting to go to D.C. to train with Audrey Wesinger right before 4CC. At first, I thought it was because Kori was at Europeans with Laurine and he needed to be out of the Olympic fever at the Olympic Training Center. But Kori's been away for other seminars/competitions before and Jason is perfectly capable of training by himself.
RE: The Inner Love free skate, I think he probably liked the concept of the program (and getting music composed for him) and that's the excitement he had expressed in the Ted Flett interview, but I think once he actually had to skate the program, it was clear he never really was full-on-board. The vibe I felt from him when he returned to the Piano program at 4CC made that really obvious. I agree choreographing a new program for an Olympic season in July was a bad idea. I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason is that they had other plans, but Jason was persistent in pushing for a Hamilton program and by the time the dust settled it was July.
Anyway, I really liked what I saw in Laval even if he had struggled in the SP, so I anticipate good things in France. I'm looking forward to hearing reports from posters -- there's quite a few going to IdF!
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So impressed with the insight of our posters!!
I have a hunch the day Jason lands his 4 toe or sal in practice (fully rotated), it will be posted faster than a blink of an eye. So my feeling is, until we see it, we can assume he isn't landing them, at least not cleanly.
I have a hunch the day Jason lands his 4 toe or sal in practice (fully rotated), it will be posted faster than a blink of an eye. So my feeling is, until we see it, we can assume he isn't landing them, at least not cleanly.
I think Tavi saw Jason land a 4S at ACI practice IIRC. I think he's landing them at least some of the time in practice, otherwise I don't think they would have put them in at all. It's probably not 100 percent consistent, but probably that he lands a few.
Also, more talk from Jason and how bad he's at choreography lol.
https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/...-creation-to-performance-of-new-programs.aspx
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
It's so nice to be able to discuss the pros and cons without vehemence and sniping. :clapper: I'm wondering if - just if - the fact that Jason was Kori's first world-class skater that maybe she just didn't have the wherewithal to realize he was going further and further behind on the technical side or what to do about it. He was loudly praised for his performance ability and consistency....but then the value of both became diminished with the quad focus and his team either didn't realize it or didn't think it would last. I firmly believe Jason has the skill to jump quads - have always believed that. Just like I've always believed it had something to do with his technique!! I don't expect much from him this year because he's 22 (or 23? have lost track) and has to undue or alter technique he's been doing since he was 5 years old. So much of figure skating, especially in competition, is muscle memory and a few months are not going to erase years of memory overnight. I hope Jason skates well enough to always be in contention and that the medals will come eventually.
I really like the comments and observations that have been made here. Mrs P - I hope I get to the point where I can appreciate Simon and Garfunkel....not there yet. To me the music drags and I would prefer something slow and dramatic or something quick and peppy. S&G is in the middle for me.
I really like the comments and observations that have been made here. Mrs P - I hope I get to the point where I can appreciate Simon and Garfunkel....not there yet. To me the music drags and I would prefer something slow and dramatic or something quick and peppy. S&G is in the middle for me.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Sadly I didn’t take video of the 4S at ACI. It looked good but because of the angle I can’t swear whether it was fully rotated. But perhaps DinkyD hasn’t seen some of the 4T clips from 2015 & 2016?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lXPdlUBTnAw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YTN0w3ZJEhY
God he looks so different with the really black ponytail!
As to being bad at choreo and having to drill things a lot: IMO that’s why Inner Love didn’t work. And that’s probably also why this year’s FS looked so improved at Skate Canada.
ETA the run through was at SLC right after he finished the extended work with Frank. The two things I notice the most (aside from music being a bit off): (1) a beautiful Ina Bauer - I’ve always wondered why he never does them like this in competition; and (2) He is much stronger and faster now than he was in 2016, and he gets a lot more power from his edges.
Until I reread Mrs. P’s post, didn’t realize Jason was liking the comments on his IG with all the fire icons and “so hot” comments.
That sly dog
I don't know about IG -- I was mainly talking about Twitter. The cognitive dissonance was real! There is some real
: comments. There was even one that was kinda NSFW, lol.Ugh, I did not like the dark hair phase. It was so wrong with his skin coloring. One of Rohene's classic styling moves LOL.
I do feel the silver lining of the last quad is that he did really work on his skating skills -- both speed and edges. As exhausting last Tracy's Wilson SS class was, it would have been interesting what it would have been like when he was less far along in that area.
Yeah, I didn't think you had video, otherwise you would have posted it already! But I just wanted to point out that you mentioned it.
