Jeffrey Buttle out of Skate Canada's favour?

[antmanb]

Millie, I think what ChuckM is saying is that you can't blame Jeff Buttle for not being Evgeny Plushenko, any more than you can blame, say, Joey Russel for not being Stephane Lambiel, or me for not being the Queen of England.

They're just not, and no amount of "taking advantage of excellent training facilities" is going to change that.

Let Jeff Buttle be the best Jeff Buttle he can be. If someone else comes along who can do a quad, great -- but that's no reason to pick on Buttle.

JMO.

That has to be one of the best responses i have read....maybe you'd make a great queen of England MM!!!!!

Ant

 

[rain]

I think it's harsh and counterproductive when the head of a skating federation makes derogatory remarks about skating skills that can only be interpreted as a swipe at specific skaters.

Poor Joannie! She's always had confidence problems, and remarks like this are not a confidence builder. When you consider that the next best is Mira Leung, it makes no sense to openly criticize your best female skater.

Jeff will most likely never have a quad or a reliable 3A, even in a good season when he is not injured. He has already done well for Canada, winning a World and an Olympic medal. Why beat him up publicly when he is your best male skater?

I couldn't agree with you more. It is totally counterproductive to do this in public. Notice that Jeff and Joannie still were the top finishers for Canada in their disciplines. And Jeff was only able to be on the ice for a few months after fracturing his back, for heaven's sake. I think Joannie has shown in the past that she does, in fact, have it in her to do the kind of technical content shown by the top competitors at worlds. She just needs to get back there. Look at what happened with our current world champion, folks. Ando was nowhere the last two years, now she's on form.

As for the triple axel benchmark in ladies.....When I hear about Asada wanting to put the axel and a quad in her programs for next season, all I can think about is the injuries she is going to almost inevitably sustain. I just don't think it's possible to sustain that kind of technical content for any number of years (and that would be the goal) without doing serious damage to the young bodies trying it. There is a limit to physical possibility.

 

[slutskayafan21]

We know that we have some of the best, most talented skaters in the world. We know that they can do the jumps just as well as their competitors. Emanuel does the quad in practice: Joannie and Mira does their triple-triple's: I think that Jeff's nerves and injuries are holding him back. When you see such talented skaters in practice and what they can do and see the same skaters on international ice, they are like chauk and cheese. We are not the ones whining and complaining, the skaters are. After every competition, when they are talking to the media, they themselves say that "I know I can do better" or "I do these jumps in practice" Or "I have to go back home and work harder".

I am a hug fan of Emanuel, Jeff, Mira and Joannie and I know they can be the best. Sometimes a little "tough love" is all they need to give them the extra push and sometimes a push is useless if they are skating their best and can't do better. For example: if a child in school is bring home B's or C's, if that is the best the child can do, than you praise them and say that's excellent. But, if a child is bringing home B's and C's and you know that they can get A's and A+'s, than that's a different story. You say you can do better. This same example applies to the skaters.

What makes you think these skaters would be on top even if they landed the jumps they do in practice?

Jeff very rarely lands quads he tries in practice, in fact that is how he injures himself. His triple axel is hit or miss in practice just like it is in competition. He pretty jumps in competition as he does in practice, so he doesnt exactly fail in competition.

Sandhu would be nowhere near the top at this point even if he landed all his jumps, including the quad, unless others bombed out. Look at Sandhu's score in the short program with a triple flip-triple toe combo(9.5 base value)compared to Lambiel's score in the short program with a triple toe-double toe combo(5.3 base value)when both made the same mistake(falling on a triple axel, Lambiel's a worse fall that slid over the ice). That will give you an idea how he compares to the very best now if they each land their jumps.

Mira? Triple-triples might not even put her in the top 10. Small ugly jumps with bad technique, terrible posture, very little style, designing her look as that of a 12 year old. She has much more to fix other then triple-triples to be competitive.

Rochette? Look at her PCS compared to the very best, look at how the top 3 or 4 do 2 triple-triples and 2 of them can even do a triple axel. Doing the triple-triple she does in practice in competion is no gaurantee of her being at the top either.

 

[chuckm]

What has caused Sandhu's PCS scores to go down is the lack of speed in his performances. It is downright painful to see him slow down and stalk the 3A, and invariably miss it. He never used to be like that. In his case, it is a lack of dedication to training that is at the root of his problem now, not so much a personality quirk. He is beginning to lose his skills, and it is a sad thing to watch him skate.

In Joannie's case, it is a lack of belief in herself. That is why the public tonguelashing is so inappropriate. Psychology testing has shown that you don't get good performances from test subjects by punishing them. I sometimes think Joannie's problem is that she has seen how Skate Canada castigates skaters for poor performances, so she skates with fear of not performing well, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And perhaps that's why Joannie appears to be stiff when she skates, especially in the upper body.

It's useless to browbeat Jeff for not having a quad or a reliable 3A. He didn't have either when he won World and Olympic medals, and there was no complaint then. He is a great stylistic skater, and unique in his own way. Canada should be thrilled to have him. He probably isn't going to bring home an Olympic medal in 2010, but so what? He ALREADY did, and he should be celebrated for that for more than one year. Sheesh!

I quite agree that it is ridiculous that the 12 top skaters in Canada don't have to do any preliminary competitions. What incentive is there for them to be ready for Nationals?

In the US, although the top 5 in each discipline don't have to do Regionals or Sectionals, they have to maintain their skills. Unless they are injured, they are expected to take part in Summer competitions, and their performances are monitored. In some cases, excellent results at the summer competitions earn skaters who did not place high at Nationals a place on the Reserve funding list and some "B" competitions in the fall. Junior and top Novice skaters are assigned to JGP events based on their continued development as shown post-season.

Fact: the average SP score for Senior Ladies at Canadian Nationals was 45.24, compared to 50.56 for US Senior Ladies and 46.12 for US Junior Ladies. The average score for Canadian Junior Ladies was 34.29, compared to 38.91 for US Novice ladies.

Instead of criticizing the top skaters for not being better, maybe Skate Canada needs to go to the bottom level and concentrate on helping the younger skaters build better skills. At the same time, the Senior and Junior skaters should be held to a higher standard and have to earn a chanceto compete at Nationals.

 

[nadster]

I thought that this would be changing next year. I heard the seniors have to do sectionals and Challenge next year. There is supposed to be no more free ride. In EOS the section is not even going to pay the accomodation costs for Challenge and Canadians any more. I don't know abou the other sections. They will give a discretionary bonus after the competition in lieu of the accomodation payment. So no more recreational seniors that drain the association's resources.

This is a definite improvement although take note that most sectional competitions at the senior level are glorified exhibitions simply because there are not enough skaters to eliminate anyone.

But at least eliminating skaters at the challenge level is certainly a step in the right direction. Nationals should be earned , not given.

Of course merging sections would also be a good idea where it makes sense. The first place I would start is Saskatchewan and Manitoba. The second is all the Maritime provinces ( imagine that Prince Edward Island has its own section). These are small sections which will never have the numbers individually to force real competition at the sectional level. Of course cost of travel would have to figure in here but certainly two or more really small sections in close proximity should merge. BTW, my merge proposals cover 6 sections targeting of course the smallest ones.

 

[blue dog]

This is a definite improvement although take note that most sectional competitions at the senior level are glorified exhibitions simply because there are not enough skaters to eliminate anyone.

But at least eliminating skaters at the challenge level is certainly a step in the right direction. Nationals should be earned , not given.

I agree with nationals being earned. In the US, the only way out of these competitions is if you have GP, or you are injured (Tonya Harding had a bye out of regionals when she received death threats). Japan makes no exceptions--they will move the regionals to accomodate their skaters. They almost never coincide with GPs to make sure that skaters can do both. Even a world champion skates at regionals (which is a formality, but Japan does this to help get programs mileage).

 

[nadster]

In the US, although the top 5 in each discipline don't have to do Regionals or Sectionals, they have to maintain their skills. Unless they are injured, they are expected to take part in Summer competitions, and their performances are monitored. In some cases, excellent results at the summer competitions earn skaters who did not place high at Nationals a place on the Reserve funding list and some "B" competitions in the fall. Junior and top Novice skaters are assigned to JGP events based on their continued development as shown post-season.

Fact: the average SP score for Senior Ladies at Canadian Nationals was 45.24, compared to 50.56 for US Senior Ladies and 46.12 for US Junior Ladies. The average score for Canadian Junior Ladies was 34.29, compared to 38.91 for US Novice ladies.

Instead of criticizing the top skaters for not being better, maybe Skate Canada needs to go to the bottom level and concentrate on helping the younger skaters build better skills. At the same time, the Senior and Junior skaters should be held to a higher standard and have to earn a chanceto compete at Nationals.

All the Canadian skaters compete in the summer barring injury and they are monitored. A skater or new team who shows potential in the summer can get a senior B or if within the age range a JGP. Of course that also gives them an exemption even if they finish 20th in their JGP assignment ( yes that has happened before). Yes a 20th place in a JGP earns you an exemption from qualifying for senior nationals or juniors if you are competing there.

I also notice that the national fields are smaller in the States than in Canada. There are a minimum of 20 spots in junior events in Canada ( top 10 or top half of each challenge group whichever is larger ) plus any JGP exemptions.

In the states you have exactly 12 novices at nationals compared to a minimum of 16 in Canada ( top 8 or top third of each challenge group whichever is larger)

I agree about what you said Skate Canada needs to do. Merging small sections would also help improve competition at the local level.

 

[bekalc]

All the Canadian skaters compete in the summer barring injury and they are monitored. A skater or new team who shows potential in the summer can get a senior B or if within the age range a JGP. Of course that also gives them an exemption even if they finish 20th in their JGP assignment ( yes that has happened before). Yes a 20th place in a JGP earns you an exemption from qualifying for senior nationals or juniors if you are competing there.

I also notice that the national fields are smaller in the States than in Canada. There are a minimum of 20 spots in junior events in Canada ( top 10 or top half of each challenge group whichever is larger ) plus any JGP exemptions.

In the states you have exactly 12 novices at nationals compared to a minimum of 16 in Canada ( top 8 or top third of each challenge group whichever is larger)

I agree about what you said Skate Canada needs to do. Merging small sections would also help improve competition at the local level.

I think that Canada should have people compete for nationals too, even if it means a talented skater stays behind.

A great example of the benefits of this is Mirai Nagasu. Last competitive season, Mirai was expected to make it to nationals, but she made huge mistakes and was left behind. Mirai said it was becasue she got a little bit cocky, and didn't practice like she should have.

As a result this year, Mirai went back to the rink and practiced like crazy. Now, she's the Junior national champion, and the junior worlds silver medalist.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I quite agree that it is ridiculous that the 12 top skaters in Canada don't have to do any preliminary competitions. What incentive is there for them to be ready for Nationals?

In the US, although the top 5 in each discipline don't have to do Regionals or Sectionals, they have to maintain their skills. Unless they are injured, they are expected to take part in Summer competitions, and their performances are monitored. In some cases, excellent results at the summer competitions earn skaters who did not place high at Nationals a place on the Reserve funding list and some "B" competitions in the fall. Junior and top Novice skaters are assigned to JGP events based on their continued development as shown post-season.

Fact: the average SP score for Senior Ladies at Canadian Nationals was 45.24, compared to 50.56 for US Senior Ladies and 46.12 for US Junior Ladies. The average score for Canadian Junior Ladies was 34.29, compared to 38.91 for US Novice ladies.

Instead of criticizing the top skaters for not being better, maybe Skate Canada needs to go to the bottom level and concentrate on helping the younger skaters build better skills. At the same time, the Senior and Junior skaters should be held to a higher standard and have to earn a chanceto compete at Nationals.

I agree with you all you said there. The CFSA seems to focus all their attention on skaters past 20 and demanding them to make some wild transformation of their skills at that point. There does not seem to be much attention payed to the development program of the skaters when they are in the foremost years for developing their talent, and establashing their basic fundamentals and basic techniques as a skaters, as they are harder to rectify as you get older.

I also agree skaters need to be given incentives to earn "B" international events even if their ranking at the end of the prior season was not high enough, based on what they show in tests and summer competitions; while juniors should be given that incentive to perform well at summer test sessions by being rewarded with assignments.

 

[rain]

Young Canadian skaters regularly do summer competitions and the B internationals..... that's why we saw a skater like Vaughan Chipeur at Skate Canada, he'd done well enough at an early season B international to earn a chance at a more prestigious event.

Also, to say the Skate Canada isn't working on its younger skaters is inaccurate. I've seen any number of pieces about just this subject, and how Canada has been working to strengthen its Junior and novice programs so there are skaters coming up to the senior ranks that are competitive.

Where do you think the depth, just below the surface, has come from in mens? We have guys who were on the junior circuit doing quad and triple axels. In ladies, while the situation still isn't great, it's a lot better than it was a few years ago when all it took to be champion was to land about three triples, and if you had a lutz it was a bonus. Does work still need to be done? Of course, but that doesn't mean that Skate Canada is sitting back on its heels.

 

[goodbyemylover]

I'm almost surprised to be reading so much negativity on Jeff Buttle.

About this time last year, he was showered with adoration in Canada for his bronze win at the Olympics. Sandhu, even without a medal or good showing at that event, gave Team Canada another slot for the men at the following Worlds.
While Sandhu may have always seemed like a "joke" to many fans, the point is Buttle and he have contributed a great deal in the last few seasons to their country.

The media was kind to Buttle and excited for his finish in the SP in Tokyo this year. When he did not place in the top 5, Buttle seems to have been jumped on by media and "fans" alike. Praises have been retracted, and hopes for a quadless win were suddenly impossible. Members of Skate Canada have even begun to voice how little faith they have in -any- of their skaters.

And while I love Christopher Mabee, but I feel it was ridiculous for the officials to have faith in the quad jump alone. It seems demeaning to the sport to place so much importance on a jump many of the skaters cannot do, due to a lack of training or their body type. I realize Mabee is new on the scene, but he didn't place any better than the rest of his countrymen.

These skaters are the best their countries currently have to offer, and I think that fact should be accepted. If someone better comes along, no problem; they will be representing their countries, if so.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I'm almost surprised to be reading so much negativity on Jeff Buttle.

About this time last year, he was showered with adoration in Canada for his bronze win at the Olympics. Sandhu, even without a medal or good showing at that event, gave Team Canada another slot for the men at the following Worlds.
While Sandhu may have always seemed like a "joke" to many fans, the point is Buttle and he have contributed a great deal in the last few seasons to their country.

The media was kind to Buttle and excited for his finish in the SP in Tokyo this year. When he did not place in the top 5, Buttle seems to have been jumped on by media and "fans" alike. Praises have been retracted, and hopes for a quadless win were suddenly impossible. Members of Skate Canada have even begun to voice how little faith they have in -any- of their skaters.

And while I love Christopher Mabee, but I feel it was ridiculous for the officials to have faith in the quad jump alone. It seems demeaning to the sport to place so much importance on a jump many of the skaters cannot do, due to a lack of training or their body type. I realize Mabee is new on the scene, but he didn't place any better than the rest of his countrymen.

These skaters are the best their countries currently have to offer, and I think that fact should be accepted. If someone better comes along, no problem; they will be representing their countries, if so.

Wow... this might be the most mature post I've read in awhile...