Jennifer Kirk - How skating gets its groove back

[dannyascii]

2. I've gotta echo everyone who points out that the COP isn't that hard to understand. But more than that, we have the why behind the marks now too (with the protocols). Anyone reasonably interested can find out what's going on. I just think interest comes with having someone to root for. So it's a kind of ororborus. Without anyone to root for, the COP isn't something worth exploring for many viewers/casual fans. But without exploring COP and more generally the current figure skating scene, they don't find someone to support. So essentially people need to be told who to support, generally by that someone having sustained success within the sport (like Asada or Kim) or having a media friendly personality/look (Sasha Cohen, for example).

Exactly! US ladies skating isn't in a rut because of the judging; it's just the ebb and flow of the system. I really think having Sasha back will boost ladies ratings. Is this because Sasha is the best American ladies skater? Not necessarily. Flatt is far more consistent than Cohen ever was. But Cohen gives the casual fan an interest story; it gives them a smiling face and familiar name to root for. I mean, if you really think about it, figure skating is not nearly as difficult to understand as say football. But people actually invest the time to learn how football works because they feel a connection to the game and the players. We could go back to 6.0. Heck, we could probably find something even simpler, but that won't draw viewers. There has to be something -more- that makes people interested, and right now we don't have that. Unfortunately, you can't just "make" a new star to replace Michelle. I think it's just a waiting game. The Olympics will help raise ratings for this season and next season. Hopefully by then, we have some more skaters who can reach audiences on a broader level.

 

[Wicked]

I think the CoP is difficult for casual fans to understand and commentators need to take the mystery away from it rather than lamenting the demise of the 6.0 system. One thing that is helpful is showing what a skater's personal best for the season is. That way casual fans can get a sense of what type of score is considered good for that skater. Scores only ever mean anything in context. I think it would also help if the commentators said what score they thought it would take to win the SP, the LP, and the competition overall.

Many good points have been made above about the lack of a charismatic figure for US fans to cheer on. In the US, the ladies are everything, and there has been no one US woman who has put herself out there as a star, in either skating or personality. You do have to wonder what effect Sasha will have on this. She's a known name and has star power. She may increase interest in the US.

 

[heyang]

I'm not sure how much the US media will gain by marketing Sasha..

She's never been a consistent jumper in competition. Some people might remember how much she fell during her Olympic silver medal performance and she herself considered herself lucky to have gotten any medal (remember, she changed out of her costume because she really didn't think she would be on the medal podium - not even pewter)

Until she's proven that she's beaten her mental demons, the US media is better off not announcing her as a likely Olympic medalist of any color.

 

[bekalc]

I heard that NBC is planning on marketing Yu-na. When you think about it, it makes sense. I mean American men loved Katerina. And I think they are figuring they will love Yu-na too.

As for Sasha, I don't think Americans would ever really trust her. They got a first hand taste of what it is to be a Sasha fan, and it's one of those once bitten twice shy type of things.

 

[Mathman]

I heard that NBC is planning on marketing Yu-na. When you think about it, it makes sense. I mean American men loved Katerina. And I think they are figuring they will love Yu-na too.

That is very interesting. The Olympics are usually a flag-waving affair. Is NBC going to exhort the U.S.audience to turn out and cheer for the Korean athlete to take home the gold?

I think in the past, American fans had a lot of warm feelings for international skaters who were the "loyal opposition." Katerina Witt against Rosalyn Sumners, Witt against Debi Thomas, Midori Ito against Kristi Yamaguchi, Irina Slutskaya against Michelle Kwan.

It will be interesting to see how NBC handles it if they have conceded that America does not have a horse in the race this year.

 

[bekalc]

That is very interesting. The Olympics are usually a flag-waving affair. Is NBC going to exhort the U.S.audience to turn out and cheer for the Korean athlete to take home the gold?

I think in the past, American fans had a lot of warm feelings for international skaters who were the "loyal opposition." Katerina Witt against Rosalyn Sumners, Witt against Debi Thomas, Midori Ito against Kristi Yamaguchi, Irina Slutskaya against Michelle Kwan.

It will be interesting to see how NBC handles it if they have conceded that America does not have a horse in the race this year.

Well it's a little more than respect for the loyal opposition. I remember as a kid listening to my Dad's sports radio in 1994. And the men were talking about how they were watching skating to see Katerina Witt because she was so beautiful.

So I think they are hoping they can go the same root with Yu-na... I mean lets face it unless Sasha really shows herself to be competitive, the US doesn't have a horse in the race.

I don't think it will be so much you have to root for Yu-na, Mao is getting fluff's too. It's more about don't you want to watch Yu-na. Because really that's all they kind of have right now. A pretty charismatic, reigning world champion, who speaks English. And then her rivalry with Mao.

 

[Buttercup]

I'm not sure how much the US media will gain by marketing Sasha..

She's never been a consistent jumper in competition. Some people might remember how much she fell during her Olympic silver medal performance and she herself considered herself lucky to have gotten any medal (remember, she changed out of her costume because she really didn't think she would be on the medal podium - not even pewter)

There is no such thing as a pewter medal at the Olympics. In some sports, there are two bronzes (e.g. judo). AFAIK the pewter medal is unique to US Nationals. I've certainly not seen it used at any other event.

As for whether or not marketing Sasha would be a good idea, I think her performance in the GP will give some indication as to where she fits among the contenders. Yu-Na would be an excellent choice for all the hype should no American lady emerge as a medal contender.

 

[Particle Man]

Now, the programs are MUCH more technically demanding, and there have been many great 'performances', but how many will be remembered years from now as great 'programs'? Yuka Sato was known for her footwork as she flew down the ice...but that wouldn't be rewarded now because she doesn't have the Morosov-flapping-arms. Do those make a great footwork sequence? Not necessarily...but that's what makes a high-scoring footwork sequence. To me, the Code of Points has put at odds that which is 'beautiful' or 'lyrical' against that which brings in the high scores. Change of edge spins are difficult, and I'm sure many of those ladies I mentioned previously would struggle, but again, does that make it better? Making something more difficult to accomplish doesn't inherently make it better for the viewer to watch.

Yep. It's not just that CoP is a poorly balanced, hard-to-understand system. It's also what effect it has had on the programs. Sure there have been positive effects, such as a closer attention to technical detail, but it's also ushered in conformity and boring, repetitive programs.

How many people actively watch speed skating? ...yeah. Why put a speed skater in charge of figure skating?

(Sasha's) never been a consistent jumper in competition. Some people might remember how much she fell during her Olympic silver medal performance

Once?

 

[Buttercup]

Yep. It's not just that CoP is a poorly balanced, hard-to-understand system. It's also what effect it has had on the programs. Sure there have been positive effects, such as a closer attention to technical detail, but it's also ushered in conformity and boring, repetitive programs.

How many people actively watch speed skating? ...yeah. Why put a speed skater in charge of figure skating?

I agree with some of your comments re CoP, but overall I feel it's the right direction for skating. Should there be some changes? Absolutely. Should it be completely discarded? Not IMO. But that's an old argument so let's not rehash it.

Anyway, CoP is not something Speedy developed; it's no secret that David Dore, the ISU VP for figure skating, was the one who did most of the work. So I guess you could, let's say, Blame Canada?

 

[Particle Man]

I also "developed" the idea for a hybrid system. But it's speedy who decides what system to use, so the blame is on him.

 

[R.D.]

Once?

She fell on her first two jump passes...

even if her butt didn't hit the ice the 2nd time, I still consider it a fall because both her hands came down- a total loss of balance. She didn't even hang on.

 

[Particle Man]

She fell on her first two jump passes...

even if her butt didn't hit the ice the 2nd time, I still consider it a fall because both her hands came down- a total loss of balance. She didn't even hang on.

Hands-down isn't a fall. Your bias is obvious and really quite boring.

 

[Medusa]

Hands-down isn't a fall. Your bias is obvious and really quite boring.

Cohen didn't get a -1 deduction, but the current rules state

a fall is defined as loss of control by the skater with the result that the majority of his / her own body weight is on the ice by any other part of the body other than the blades e.g. hand(s), knee(s), back, buttock(s) or any part of the arm

I don't know how you see it, but she fell out of the landing and had to support her entire upper body with both hands. That wasn't a mere touch down. I think she was lucky that it wasn't called as another fall. A similar "fall" by Verner in his long program 2007 at Worlds was punished with -1 deduction.

 

[R.D.]

I don't know how you see it, but she fell out of the landing and had to support her entire upper body with both hands. That wasn't a mere touch down. I think she was lucky that it wasn't called as another fall.

Completely agree.

 

[Tonichelle]

Hands-down isn't a fall. Your bias is obvious and really quite boring.

you know, it's funny, the uberkwan fans have - in the past - claimed RD to be a rabid Sasha lover... then the Sasha fans get on RD's case about not being her fan... it's all rather humorous to me.

 

[R.D.]

you know, it's funny, the uberkwan fans have - in the past - claimed RD to be a rabid Sasha lover... then the Sasha fans get on RD's case about not being her fan... it's all rather humorous to me.

I swear!!!

 

[Hsuhs]

Cohen didn't get a -1 deduction, but the current rules state

...............

I don't know how you see it, but she fell out of the landing and had to support her entire upper body with both hands. That wasn't a mere touch down. I think she was lucky that it wasn't called as another fall. A similar "fall" by Verner in his long program 2007 at Worlds was punished with -1 deduction.

Yeah, but a similar "touch down" by Stephane Lambiel in his long program in 2007 GPF wasn't punished with -1 deduction.

So, all that 'support of the body' is in the eye of the beholder, it seems.

I never followed Sasha's career, I only read she was gifted on more than one occasion (which I tend to believe). But at least the Oly's panel had the decency to not put her ahead of Arakawa with a skate like that.

 

[R.D.]

Arakawa skated after Cohen. It's obvious that she (the former) deserved to be ahead.

The real surprise to me was Slute being put behind Cohen, but I won't rehash that again.

 

[Hsuhs]

When it comes to figure skating, things like 'obvious' and 'deserved' don't always apply, IMO. I think the 2008-2009 season is a good illustration.

 

[Particle Man]

Yeah, but a similar "touch down" by Stephane Lambiel in his long program in 2007 GPF wasn't punished with -1 deduction.

Different year, different panel -- your point is?

So, all that 'support of the body' is in the eye of the beholder, it seems.

We beholders don't count. Only the judges. If someone else at the ladies Olympic free skate of 2006 was penalized for the same mistake, you'll have an argument.

I never followed Sasha's career

OK, so why do you feel qualified to comment on it?

I only read she was gifted on more than one occasion (which I tend to believe).

And you believe it without evidence or research, and without following her career = more clear bias.

But at least the Oly's panel had the decency to not put her ahead of Arakawa with a skate like that.

So the Olympic panel acted correctly (in your opinion), thus had "decency" and you bring it up -- why? Oh, to implicitly slander Sasha and the judges. You're implying that it is unusual for the judges to have the "decency" to place Arakawa first, that it's unusual that Sasha was scored fairly. And also that it is somehow Sasha's (or any other skater's) fault what the judges do.

Nope no bias here!